Ica

[Richard Morse]

Can ordinary computers (run by wavering luddites) deal with gif files? If you choose a file type that's anything other than completely accessible you've removed some of the point of this.

GIF is one of the ONLY two "standard" file types on the internet AND compatible with all operating systems out there. The other is JPG. I would hazard to say that there are actually more gif's than jpg - or any other file type for web and graphics use. Gif was invented in 1987 and has not changed - though new "features" have been added such as interlaced, no background, animated, etc.

 

Jpg files arrived on the scene considerably later and have undergone many changes in basic encoding, compression algorithms, component resolutions, segment aspect ratios, color modeling, resource block extensions, international standards changes.... I've experienced many cases of being unable to open/view/manipulate jpg files due to incompatibilities between the files and the programs I'm using. Oh yeah, not to mention that jpgs are lossy.

 

If I had to pick one image format that I think would stand the test of time and quality (no degradation), I'd pick gif. I *do* realize that it has some limitations (mainly the nmber of colors it supports), but for line art, crisp graphics, and music scores! Nothing else comes close.

 

-- Rich --

[Rhomylly]

To get around this we explored the idea of having the entire library scanned professionally - but it isn't a very cheap process (if I recall, someone did suggest that they would pay for the scanning - but the price to the ICA would be that all the music would then be placed on the internet for free access to everyone ... rather a matter of chucking out the baby with the bathwater!) Even if we could afford to have the scanning done - and it would have cost something like the total income from subscriptions for a number of years - there would be the other small problems like storage of the images and the creation of a good quality database to service it - since with out the database the scans would be less use than the library. I also think that that scary word "Copyright" croped up a couple of times!

 

(cut)

 

So ... in our defense - we did consider the possibility - but reluctantly discarded it for most of the reasons I've listed above. Now, if there is anyone reading this who can tell us how to change a library of scores into a database of clear usable electronic images and a negligible cost and even less effort - please, please tell us! More so if they know the copyright rules well enough to convince us that we wouldn't be breaking the law. Just to make it a little harder - I would like the images to be stored in .tif format, be of good contrast black and white with the stave strictly horizontal - so that I can use my music OCR software directly on the image..

 

Well now. When my overly-controlling mother finally shuffles off this mortal coil and I start getting "trust fund" money -- I know who to donate it to!

 

P.S. I've found in the last few days I'm quite good at ferreting out who holds copyright to what music.

[allan atlas]

FOLKS: as a concertinist-musicologist who knows little about computers and who does not mind waiting a few weeks to get this or that piece of music (i'm used to it, and what's the rush, anyway?), i would just like to say that my own dealings with Dave B. and the ICA library have been nothing short of marvelous over the years. . . . .don't know what i would have done without them..............allan

[jonmac]

Just to underscore Pauline's point, it never occurred to me that as a result of my moaning the whole library would be scanned. I, too, expected that stuff would be recorded (scanned, photographed,) as it was requested so that the librarian hopefully does little more than he was doing before, but would be saved the effort if that particular piece of music was ever needed again.

 

Can ordinary computers (run by wavering luddites) deal with gif files? If you choose a file type that's anything other than completely accessible you've removed some of the point of this. (assuming it gets taken further)

 

Hi Dirge ...

 

Don't panic - the suggestion to "scan" the whole library was made (by our librarian) a couple of years ago - for all the reasons stated (mainly money) we had to abandon the idea. Mind you at that time we were considering the physical scanning of the material ... my very quick experiment earlier this evening indicates that it is perfectly possible to take a passable picture that could be transmitted electronic!

 

The cost of a camera these days is not unreasonable - I suspect we would need some sort of "rig" to allow successful pictures to be taken - I have a number of digital cameras so will explore how high a resolution picture we need. Storage and transmission in .gif format (rather than .jpgs) would be best - as far as I know they are compatible with Apple Macs as well as Windows PC.

 

Kind regards

[JimLucas]

I suspect we would need some sort of "rig" to allow successful pictures to be taken

I think a standard tripod of the sort that allows the camera to be suspended between the legs (e.g., for getting closeups of insects or small plants) should work. If you extend the legs and keep the camera as high as possible, you should be able to photograph a document lying within the triangle of the legs.

[Chris Timson]

I agree, Jim. Also, with my Canon 300D digital SLR, which has a 6 Mp resolution, I have been able to take photos of fine art and print out on a giclee printer at A3plus size with excellent fidelity (though I was using good prime lenses). I would be willing to lend the camera, lenses and tripod for, say, a couple of months if that would help break the back of the work. I think at this point I shall take this thought to the ICA committee's own mailing list for further discussion/exploration.

 

Chris

[Robin Madge]

Well the conversation above looks like it might well be leading to a solution for the successful capture of the printed page.

Can we hope that when someone requests a copy and goes away and learns how to play it they might then record it for the benefit of us who don't read the dots?

I'm afraid that I'm a lapsed member because I felt that I wasn't getting much back from the association, but I'm ready to have my opinion changed.

 

Robin Madge

[wes williams]

I'm afraid that I'm a lapsed member because I felt that I wasn't getting much back from the association, but I'm ready to have my opinion changed.

Depends when you lapsed, Robin. If it was around 5, 6 or 7 years ago, you'll probably remember the struggle that the ICA was having with a vocal element of its membership who were determined that no Internet/Electronic Media etc should be used, and everything maintained as paper only (as Chris T. well knows, and something Rich Morse may not be aware of). Things have changed since then - Al's topic starter shows he's happy with what he's getting now, and I can only repeat that most of the subs go back to the members as Newsletters and such like.

 

But there is another side to being a member - you are supporting the website, the library, the archives, the events calender, PICA, etc, etc, which give you benefit in intangeable ways. I can only speak for the document archive which, for instance, recently provided a few odds and sods on Herbert Greene which have helped along the way in producing a site about Herbert and filling in the picture, as well as some background on Herbert leading to the Concordeon discussion in the History Forum. From the ICA Library, Allan Atlas has been helped producing his books and papers, and Dirge will soon be learning some new tunes. ICA members can feel smug that they've helped things like this to happen - wouldn't you like to feel that way too?

Edited July 12, 2007 by wes williams

[Roger Gawley]

Can ordinary computers (run by wavering luddites) deal with gif files? If you choose a file type that's anything other than completely accessible you've removed some of the point of this.

GIF is one of the ONLY two "standard" file types on the internet AND compatible with all operating systems out there. The other is JPG. I would hazard to say that there are actually more gif's than jpg - or any other file type for web and graphics use. Gif was invented in 1987 and has not changed - though new "features" have been added such as interlaced, no background, animated, etc.

 

Jpg files arrived on the scene considerably later and have undergone many changes in basic encoding, compression algorithms, component resolutions, segment aspect ratios, color modeling, resource block extensions, international standards changes.... I've experienced many cases of being unable to open/view/manipulate jpg files due to incompatibilities between the files and the programs I'm using. Oh yeah, not to mention that jpgs are lossy.

 

If I had to pick one image format that I think would stand the test of time and quality (no degradation), I'd pick gif. I *do* realize that it has some limitations (mainly the nmber of colors it supports), but for line art, crisp graphics, and music scores! Nothing else comes close.

 

-- Rich --

 

 

Oh dear, I just caught up with this discussion which I am very glad to see, and am about to nitpick with one of the people here I most respect and tend to agree with. Anyway the original discussion concerned the idea of scanning the library not the technical details.

 

Here goes the nitpick regardless, the proper standard for sending files would be PNG: Portable Network Graphics format. GIF has indeed been around for a long time but is a proprietary format (currently belongs to unisys I believe).

 

I am just not going to get into the "JPEG is lossy" debate. (Maybe somewhere else but not here.) This is technically correct but rather beside the point. Several people here have suggested digital camera images as a good means of speedy transmission if not necessarily archiving. These are going to be JPEGS.

 

As I just happened to have my camera and the latest ICA music supplement here in the office, I tried photographing a page of music. The result is rather encouraging: I cannot put it onto a computer screen here because I do not have the connecting lead with me, but just looking at it on the camera LCD it looks as though it would be quite possible to play directly from a paper version. Does not meet Jon Mac's requirements above however.

 

Sorry about the nitpick. The first thing for the ICA to do is to decide its direction on this. Then we can have the technical debate, consulting people like Rich who have opinions based on wide experience. So, you see, at least four ICA committee members, all with differing views are reading this. How's that for responsiveness?

[Alan Day]

I'm afraid that I'm a lapsed member because I felt that I wasn't getting much back from the association, but I'm ready to have my opinion changed.

Depends when you lapsed, Robin. If it was around 5, 6 or 7 years ago, you'll probably remember the struggle that the ICA was having with a vocal element of its membership who were determined that no Internet/Electronic Media etc should be used, and everything maintained as paper only (as Chris T. well knows, and something Rich Morse may not be aware of). Things have changed since then - Al's topic starter shows he's happy with what he's getting now, and I can only repeat that most of the subs go back to the members as Newsletters and such like.

 

But there is another side to being a member - you are supporting the website, the library, the archives, the events calender, PICA, etc, etc, which give you benefit in intangeable ways. I can only speak for the document archive which, for instance, recently provided a few odds and sods on Herbert Greene which have helped along the way in producing a site about Herbert and filling in the picture, as well as some background on Herbert leading to the Concordeon discussion in the History Forum. From the ICA Library, Allan Atlas has been helped producing his books and papers, and Dirge will soon be learning some new tunes. ICA members can feel smug that they've helped things like this to happen - wouldn't you like to feel that way too?

I can only add that with my International projects the ICA are going out of their way to help me with archives,advice and support, my sincere thanks for that.

I think it has been shown even in this discussion the willingness for progress.

Time to rejoin Robin and others with future down loadable written music,interesting articles and other delights to follow how could anyone not be a member. It is with these discussions,input and suggestions that the ICA becomes what we want it to be.

Al

Edited July 12, 2007 by Alan Day

[JimLucas]

...the proper standard for sending files would be PNG: Portable Network Graphics format. GIF has indeed been around for a long time but is a proprietary format (currently belongs to unisys I believe).

 

I am just not going to get into the "JPEG is lossy" debate. (Maybe somewhere else but not here.) This is technically correct but rather beside the point. Several people here have suggested digital camera images as a good means of speedy transmission if not necessarily archiving. These are going to be JPEGS.

I have just written and discarded some comments regarding the desirability of different formats for storage and distribution. Discarded, because I think that's really a side issue.

 

The important thing is to get the images, because as has already been mentioned, there are programs -- even free ones, I'm sure -- which can convert among the various common formats at the push of a button. If the image from a camera produces readable copy and an available camera is the easiest way to obtain the images, then that's the way to go. My own little camera, with "only" 2 megapixels resolution and using a moderate level of JPG compression, produces images that at reading distance are as clear to my eyes as the original documents.

[Dan Worrall]

I think that this establishes at the very least that the ICA's committee is around and is listening. We want the ICA to be more than just a talking shop for a few hundred people. So do our membership and so, it is clear, do you. The more people who do join, the more funds we will have for making good, useful and interesting things happen. And in an electronic age you have a chance to say what you want and hold us to account whether or not you make it to the AGM (currently always held in the UK, of course, but with non-UK members on the committee and an expanding international membership who knows what might happen in the future as the ICA lives up to the whole of its name).

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

I'll throw in a couple of thoughts to this...

1) If anyone is emailing around digitized bits of music, either photographed or scanned, then it would be good to think of setting up a site to archive them...that way, the more popular bits of the paper archive will slowly morph into a real digital archive. If there were an electronic 'bookshelf' that was part of the ICA site (or alternately, maybe the Concertina Library?), where the librarian could place digitized files as requested (and enter them into some sort of catalogue) rather than just 'email' them out piecemeal...wouldn't the work be manageable?

2) Picking up on someone else's thought above, I think the idea of making all ICA publications as electronic is a good one....it would save printing and mailing costs as well as labor (stuffing envelopes). Not only that, but time to printing could be made much less. PICA articles for the fall issue were completed back in January, for the most part. Almost all professional journals this day and age are either digital or going that way....and the reason is not only money but increased utility to their members. Printer-ready digital files could just be put online, on a members only part of the ICA site.

3) About the AGM and expanding the membership. A large benefit to membership in Societies is in getting to physically meet and interact with other like-minded folk. The fact that the meetings of this organization are held only in the UK limits ICA's ability to grow internationally, regardless of the clear usefulness of its printed products. I made a suggestion (emailed to the last AGM) that the ICA consider two meetings a year...one the traditional AGM that is always in the UK, and a second that was roving....one year in the States, the next in Australia, whatever. This meeting could be bolted on to an existing concertina workshop (there are a couple of annual events now in the States, for example, that are already run by folks who are ICA members). Despite declarations of interest by some when I submitted that idea, I never heard any response following the AGM.

 

The ICA is a great idea and is doing some very useful things...well worth supporting!

 

Dan

[Roger Gawley]

Thanks for the support Dan.

 

Speaking for myself, I do not think that the time has come to ditch the paper copy of the newsletter. It will come but not as soon as one might predict.

 

The committee thrashed this one out a couple of years ago and concluded that many members value the paper copy and that it is one of the things that bind the membership together. Or course, meeting real, live concertina players is even better.

 

What we are doing now with PICA seems about right: members get the paper copy first and the electronic version for the world follows.

[Chris Timson]

I made a suggestion (emailed to the last AGM) that the ICA consider two meetings a year...one the traditional AGM that is always in the UK, and a second that was roving....one year in the States, the next in Australia, whatever.

I remember this being raised at the AGM, and it seems like a neat idea, but I can't for the life of me remember what was said. My own personal feeling is that it is a good idea but that the lead in organising it should come from someone in the US or Oz. If we had a volunteer then the committee and membership can get behind and push. Still, as I say, I'm speaking in my own capacity here, not ex cathedra. Another item for the agenda?

 

Chris

[Dirge]

1) If anyone is emailing around digitized bits of music, either photographed or scanned, then it would be good to think of setting up a site to archive them...that way, the more popular bits of the paper archive will slowly morph into a real digital archive. If there were an electronic 'bookshelf' that was part of the ICA site (or alternately, maybe the Concertina Library?), where the librarian could place digitized files as requested (and enter them into some sort of catalogue) rather than just 'email' them out piecemeal...wouldn't the work be manageable?

The catch with that, Dan, is a cheapskate like me would just take the music and run. Getting at the library was a major reason for coughing up the membership, for me, and you might as well use it as a carrot to get in similar skinflints. I may have been forcefully assured how worthwhile it was but that's a long way short of actually getting and filling out a membership form etc etc.

[Alan Day]

1) If anyone is emailing around digitized bits of music, either photographed or scanned, then it would be good to think of setting up a site to archive them...that way, the more popular bits of the paper archive will slowly morph into a real digital archive. If there were an electronic 'bookshelf' that was part of the ICA site (or alternately, maybe the Concertina Library?), where the librarian could place digitized files as requested (and enter them into some sort of catalogue) rather than just 'email' them out piecemeal...wouldn't the work be manageable?

The catch with that, Dan, is a cheapskate like me would just take the music and run. Getting at the library was a major reason for coughing up the membership, for me, and you might as well use it as a carrot to get in similar skinflints. I may have been forcefully assured how worthwhile it was but that's a long way short of actually getting and filling out a membership form etc etc.

 

What you are forgetting Dirge ,is that the ICA because of their forward thinking are receiving donations at a fairly fast rate,written and playing.You may cut and run after seeing the current list of music ,but there will be others. As I have suggested before the future will be down loading artists performances as well (U tube style). The technology is already here, but not yet exploited to it,s potential. Although I cannot understand most of the computer jargon

I can see the future possibilities.

Put me down for a few pixles and a pint.

Al

[John Wild]

One other thing this discussion is revealing is the increasing mutual appreciation and co-operation among what could be completely separate and rival branches of the concertina community. Here, we have an appreciation of the ICA, and the latest edition of Concertina World extols the virtues of concertina.net. (we do know it was written by Chris Timson who is a regular contributor here, but that does not in any way invalidate the statement).

 

It may be already known, but I would like to emphasize that the ICA committee does have two members who are not UK resident - New newsletter editor Pauline De Snoo, well known in these forums, and webmaster Jonathan Taylor in Switzerland.

 

Edited to add: the ICA has a members e-mailing list and it is not unknown for information posted here to be passed on there, and vice-versa.

 

Best wishes

 

John Wild

Edited July 13, 2007 by John Wild

[wes williams]

I'll throw in a couple of thoughts to this...

1) If anyone is emailing around digitized bits of music... If there were an electronic 'bookshelf' that was part of the ICA site (or alternately, maybe the Concertina Library?)...

2) Picking up on someone else's thought above, I think the idea of making all ICA publications as electronic is a good one....

3)... I made a suggestion (emailed to the last AGM) that the ICA consider two meetings a year... I never heard any response following the AGM.

Hi Dan,

I've recently been asked what I thought of a scheme to photograph concertinas, suggested by Old Nickelby on the history forum. Yep, its a good idea, but like the things you've mentioned it needs someone who is prepared to put in the time and effort to take it up and run with it. Finding the 'leading light' is always the main problem with new ideas, and although the ICA can provide support, it doesn't have a bunch of employed staff that it can set to work. I remember your idea at the AGM getting this kind of response, pretty much as Chris's personal feelings above.

 

Its probably worth using PICA as an example. Allan Atlas came up with a detailed plan, offered to edit it (thanks Allan!), and asked the ICA to support it by publishing it. It wasn't difficult for the ICA folks to decide what to do, because they were presented with somebody wanting to do something. Same applies to Chris T. with the website, myself with the doc arc, and things like young players who'd like some financial help to attend a concertina course.

 

If we already have a something in place, we can try to add suggestions that are relevant, so your first item will be considered when we think about the future of the library and the website. Your second suggestion has been under review for a long while - as Roger indicates, there are still many ICA members who are paper only or for preference - and in many cases they are our oldest members. And as we've found before, somebody will make a fuss about how their emailed Newsletter costs less than a posted paper one, so why can't their subs be less, rather than caring about any benefit to the ICA's work.

 

The answer to your third point is simple: Who wants to volunteer to organise it?

 

best wishes ..wes