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So There's The Noel Hill Method And Then...


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So, I'm just months into the concertina and I'm facing a crisis. Fingering methods. How many are there exactly? I learned the basics of the Niall Vallely cd-rom tutorial and then discovered that the only really good concertina player/teacher in my area plays in the Noel Hill fingering style. I then, to make things more complicated, signed up for a week long course with an instructor that uses "general jeffries c/g fingering"?? And lastly, I would like to add, that through all this confusion, I just want to play like Mairead Hurley. Really badly. Who I believe was taught by Micheal O'Raghallaigh. Any idea what fingering she or he uses? How about my other favorite players like Edel Fox? Any suggestions on which route to take from here?

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Learn the different fingering systems enough to see how they're similar and how they're different. You might discover that the differences are marginal. Try playing a few tunes using the different systems and see which one makes more sense for you.

 

My experience has been that there's more than one way to finger the tunes. The instrument is like a puzzle and you have to solve it by getting the tune to fit into it. I will often use bits of one system on the way up, and another on the way down. I've been altering the way I finger tunes ever since I started. Eventually you'll realize that all the roads merge.

 

If you want to play like a particular musician, all though it helps to know their fingering system, it has more to do with style and the types of embellishments they use rather than exact fingering systems. You can only garner this sort of information from the player of interest, or someone who understands their playing well and is able to duplicate it convincingly.

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There are a few among us who can learn and internalize multiple systems of fingering right away. They tend to be the musical prodigies. My advice for most other beginners is to settle on one system and stick with it for a while. It doesn't matter what/whose system. It doesn't matter if it is Wheatstone or Jeffries layout. What matters is to be consistent at first so your brain can focus on using bellows, timing of button and bellows, ornaments if you are ready (a large part of some player's styles), etc. When you are ready to experiment with fingering you'll know it.

 

When I took a course with Michael O., I don't recall him being dogmatic or even specific about fingering.

 

My 2 cents. Oh, and have fun, don't stress about it. Look at how children learn - they are usually more patient as beginners, and it pays off.

 

Ken

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I had been playing for years and never during any lessons with Ernestine Healy, John Williams or Jacqueline McCarthy did I hear anything about a particular fingering system. I didn't realize there were rigid schools of thought until I started reading these boards. I say don't worry about it and just play the tunes using the most logical and efficient fingering for each of the tunes. Definitely get suggestions for fingerings early on, but later you'll have an idea about what fingerings are better than others.

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All the preceeding advice is very good. I'll add a bit more. I'm pretty new to the concertina. When I asked these questions a few years back, I come to the conclusion that there are two basic approaches. Traditional, old style playing is often playing along the rows. Chris Droney is a great "along the row" player. The alternative "newer" approach is "across the rows". This is the way Noel Hill teaches. I think many of the younger players play across the rows and I suspect most of them have only one or two degrees of seperation from Noel Hill.

 

The other redundant suggestion is to pick and approach and stay with it for a while. The first thing you need to do is get completely comfortable wioth your instrument. I went to Noel Hill camp as a absolute beginner and Noel was very clear "Play the way I tell you!!" He was right. If I'd known I had choices about where to play a particular note in a tune, it would not have been helpful. Now, with another teacher, I'm learning about choices. More importantly, after a year, the instrument is becoming much more comfortable and familiar.

 

Have fun

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So, I'm just months into the concertina and I'm facing a crisis. Fingering methods. How many are there exactly? I learned the basics of the Niall Vallely cd-rom tutorial and then discovered that the only really good concertina player/teacher in my area plays in the Noel Hill fingering style. I then, to make things more complicated, signed up for a week long course with an instructor that uses "general jeffries c/g fingering"?? And lastly, I would like to add, that through all this confusion, I just want to play like Mairead Hurley. Really badly. Who I believe was taught by Micheal O'Raghallaigh. Any idea what fingering she or he uses? How about my other favorite players like Edel Fox? Any suggestions on which route to take from here?

I'd second much of what Ken says. My experience of teachers who don't stress a fingering style still use one, and while alternate buttons are available and may not change the tunes much in the way they sound, the fingering styles tend to lend themselves towards different types of ornamentation and chord choices. In styles that grow out of "along the rows" playing, octave playing is very natural (though it is easily picked up in a different style). Chords that fit more naturally in those styles tend to be a bit more "major key" rather than the less defined ones from "across the rows styles" Either players can do what ever they want, but the chord possibilities that require little or no change in the way you are playing the melody make the tune style gravitate in different directions.

 

People like Edel Fox have had a number of teachers. There are a number of tunes on her new CD that are right of the pages of Noels classes, and others that are in a completely different style. My current favorite young player, Alex Reidinger, learned mostly from Grannie Hambly more known for her Harp playing, but a terriffic concertina player as well. Alex has also had a few lessons with Tim Collins and Micheal O'Raghallaigh, but it is clear that she is already bringing her Harpist sensabilities with harmony and counterpoint into her playing that will give her something quite special. Had the chance to play with her last week, and it was a rare treat. Helped to drive home to me why I want to make concertinas for people.

 

Find the music you currently like the best, and try to get a teacher who can do that at least reasonably competently. I prefer teachers who can tell you why they are doing what they do rather than those who just say that is how they learned it. I found a number of things from Micheal O'Raghallaigh's playing that I like to incorporate into my quite different style, but having a solid grounding in the first, let me appraise the alternatives for what they had to offer.

 

What I notice about the different fingering styles is that they generally are self consistent, and even though they may use a different set of primary notes, choose their alternates for the same sorts of reasons, and aside for the natural flavoring the styles give, none really limit the music in any significant way. Think of them all as starting points and your playing as something that will grow with your own deepening sense of the music.

Dana

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I agree with much of what’s been said. As you improve, tune your ear/(eyes) into the various techniques and you’ll realise how they work and why they work. Then it’s a matter of taste, I suppose. Personally I enjoy experimenting with several different styles as they each have something to offer. Perhaps my own style is less obvious as a result but it makes playing more cognitive than following the same pattern each time. It’s kept me interested these last 22 years anyway. The concertina is one of those glorious breeds that allows amazing versatility in very subtle ways.

 

A few years ago I was adjudicating a fleadh in Kilcormac, Offaly and a girl in the Under 15 competition (who’s name I can’t remember unfortunately) astounded me with her approach. I really thought I’d seen/heard all the known styles yet this child was adjusting her hand so considerably to access the lower keys yet not interrupting the rhythm of the tunes. The movements and key choices led to a unique sound and style. It looked impossible but it worked. I speculate that she was the product of self-teaching. No matter how laissez faire some teachers are – they would certainly have highlighted easier approaches. I hope she’s still playing and engaging her own unique style somewhere. Anyway they’re my thoughts for what they’re worth. Once you enjoy the music you play, does it really matter what style you use?

 

Good luck with whichever style you choose.

 

Ciaran :)

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Just to add a me too to this thread :).

 

I generally don't find a dogmatic approach to fingering to be helpful. I personally thing general principal's are a good thing, but ultimately, I find some tunes lend themselves more naturally to different styles. Usually when I first learn a tune, I spend some time experimenting with the notes to find the ones that allow me to most easily get the flow I am looking for. As a result, some of my tunes get played across the rows and some get played along the rows. As long as it blends well in the session, and allows you to do what you want to do, its all good :).

 

--

Bill

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don't worry about "systems." to the degree they even exist, there are roughly two, and as noted above, they converge once you are experienced---a) playing "along the rows" (with exceptions when needed, since you will have to "cross" at times to get certain notes or note combos) and B) playing "across the rows" (but experienced cross-row players often choose in a given spot to depart from the notes in a cross-row run and use "on the row" notes for punch, emphasis, pulse or bellows control). no matter which way you go, it's a similar conceptual process, i suspect---i.e., you learn a default pattern. then once you get grounded, you start making exceptions to it. people can talk about "systems" all they want, but it all really boils down to these loose default approaches.

 

noel hill is to all reports a great introductory teacher of the "cross-row" style, and he has his own teaching materials and ways of explaining, but tons of other folks also teach cross-row patterns. you can call them "systems" if you wish, but they are all just ways of explaining cross-row patterning. no matter who teaches it, the basics are that when starting out, your default is to try as much as possible to play from the notes clustered near your index and middle fingers---kinda "vertical" as opposed to horizontal like a harmonica. later, you make exceptions to your default, but that is with experience....

 

if you wish to go to a teacher, you could go to someone like noel hill for either or both of the following---to learn a basic default setting for cross-row playing.....and/or, to continue on and get a feel for his ornamentation style and his style of interpreting the music, if that is what grabs you. same deal with other teachers.

 

i knew i wished to get the supple, fluid "cross-row" sound for my melodies, but i was interested in a cleaner, more delicate ornamental approach, so i have been working out my own cross-row stuff by myself and have been messing with developing an ornamentation style based on lots of listening plus a few workshops when i can get them with masters of the sound i really love. you can do it this way also.....

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fingering accross the rows and in the rows are both great approaches. the sound of each is wonderful and if you're up to it, spend the time to learn how to do both. even though i spend most of my time jumping around between all three rows on both hands in irish music, i love the english style of playing, which puts the melody entirely on the right hand.

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I do not play Irish music ,but may give it a go when I have more time.I can play a few Noel Hill tunes, but only where he is playing them cross rowing on mainly the right hand.

What is the Noel Hill style that is mentioned so often? If I was playing my C/G from Left Hand to Right hand Noel Hill Method how would he play the scale of "D". I would like the rows direction etc.

Many thanks

Al

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I was self-taught and went on many weekend workshops which I found a nightmare as each time, I found myself undoing 6 or 8 months previous work and doing it a different way again, never settling on one style.

 

Noel is possibly one of the few who will do a weeks teaching and I found I learnt enough in one week to keep me going with 18 months practise so his ways became second-nature.

He is strict about learning his ways, but on day 2 he was already breaking his own rules for certain bits of certain tunes, but as always, he explained his reason for doing it.

 

Once you have got to the stage of one method being second-nature, you can start adding little tricks that you have picked up from other people. Until then your playing might be a mish-mash of different methods.

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don't worry about "systems." to the degree they even exist, there are roughly two... a) playing "along the rows" (with exceptions when needed, since you will have to "cross" at times to get certain notes or note combos) and B ) playing "across the rows"...

It seems that people keep saying that as if "cross row" is a single style. That's just not so. And there are various degrees of what I would call "hybrid" approaches.

  • One approach that's been mentioned in the past is to use either the C or G row as a "home" row, playing as much as possible on that row and only leaving it when necessary. E.g., with the C row as "home", one would go into the G row in the right hand only for the highest notes, even when playing in the key of G, while with the G row as "home", one would have to go into the left hand C row for the lower E. And of course, the "accidental" row would be used in either case for notes that are found only there.
  • A stricter along-the-rows approach would use the C row as "home" when playing in the key of C or its related modes (A minor, D whatever-it-is-with-no-accidentals, etc.), and would similarly use the G row for G major and its related modes. Of course, true along-the-row playing in D major (and Bm, etc.) isn't possible on a C/G. So if that's your "system", then you either 1) play those tunes in a different key, 2) don't play them at all, 3) alter them to remove all occurrences of C#, or 4) start to "hybridize" your "system".
  • Some people have said that while there are two G/A buttons (and also an A/G) in the left hand, they only ever use the one (some the one in the G row, others the one in the C row). Though otherwise their styles might be described as "cross row", they still restrict their own options.
  • Some years ago I was told by someone who had just attended a Noel Hill workshop that Noel mapped out a subset of the buttons as the ones he used, and that Noel said he "never" used the others... about half of a 30-button instrument. So are folks who do use those additional buttons more "cross-row" than Noel?

...but experienced cross-row players often choose in a given spot to depart from the notes in a cross-row run...

Although I don't think you meant it that way, the above quote makes it sound as if basic cross-row playing rarely plays two successive notes in the same row. As I view it, it just means that you don't deliberately confine yourself to a single row when it would be more comfortable (either physically or musically) to use notes from more than one row. As I tried to show above, that still leaves many other ways in which the buttons used for particular notes or progressions can be constrained, if you feel that that's appropriate.

 

Some people are more comfortable following a single, explicitly defined "system". Others prefer to learn several and from them develop their own. Still others prefer to develop their own style(s) and technique, and using others' systems mainly as inspiration for their own experimentation.

 

And at least at the beginner level, I think you'll find that different teachers use different tunes, in part because they select tunes which fit comfortably with their own style of playing.

 

But I will say that if you're taking a class/workshop from a particular instructor, you should do exactly as they say while you're in their course. Only after you've learned to do it their way (or maybe if after months of practice you still can't get it) should you suggest to them that you feel another way might be "better". And you should never do that in front of other students.

My two cents.

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obviously, what i meant by saying that experineced players will sometimes depart from a cross-row run, was not that it is literally ironclad to play everything cross-row. it is just that, there are spots where although the logical choice would be a same-direction run in the most basic sense, one can choose to punch a note in another direction for stylistic or bellows-crontrol reasons. experienced b/c box players also do this. the default=setting taught by formal teachers is to learn to cross the rows to flow in the same direction whenever you can. but with experience, people deliberately choose not to do this for stylistic reaons at points in the tunes.

 

again---loosely, one can conceptualize two approaches. and again, they not only aren't hard-and-fast, mutually exclusive, discrete ways of playing, they converge. the distinction is conceptual. but it is a useful conceptual distinction for a beginner, i believe.....and every teacher i've encountered has spoken of these conceptual ways of thinking about what you're doing, even when explaining that they aren't hard-and-fast.

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[*]Some years ago I was told by someone who had just attended a Noel Hill workshop that Noel mapped out a subset of the buttons as the ones he used, and that Noel said he "never" used the others... about half of a 30-button instrument. So are folks who do use those additional buttons more "cross-row" than Noel?

For beginners who Noel wants to get used to a particular set of primary buttons and bellows directions, Noel has a fixed set. Once you get used to that set, He gives you some general rules of thumb to branch out to alternate fingerings, and demonstrates these in different tunes he teaches. Generally in the first week long classes he only introduces G and D tunes. The next time you may get some A tunes as well. He also teaches "middle row tunes" and tunes that are in E, F and Bb along the way as well as all the modal and minor things. And despite the impression the person you mentioned had, Noel uses ALL the notes on his concertinas, and you are expected to learn to do that yourself once he has given you the foundation and principles for choice of where to play a note. You simply haven't gotten that far in only a couple off weeks of classes with him. After thirteen years of NHICS, I use all the notes. and have been for a good while.

Dana

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i am using all or almost all because of being fascinated with the bandoneon. before starting concertina i had been reading up on bandoneons and how the buttons are arranged, so it just seemed logical with concertina as well like you would optimally be exploring the use of all notes. i started with a vague default, but started working out exception-routes almost immediately. at such point as i acquire a 38-key, i hope to sub out the ones i don't use, plus the new "extra" buttons, with flat-key tonics & fifths so that i can play east clare/east galway-ish flat-key stuff without lugging around a second concertina. it's been a pleasant surprise on c/g how doable the keys of f, c and even b-flat are, but one does long for both-direction options in notes such as b-flat, e-flat/d-sharp, f & c.....

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