Rhomylly Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 After a telephone conversation yesterday with a certain American publisher, I can now announce with some confidence that some time next year there will be a book out that takes some basic British folk dances(longsword, morris, English country, and Abbots Bromley), seasonal mummer's plays, and some seasonally appropriate songs, and gives directions, music, scripts, etc. for each. One season of the year per section of the book. Written by, um, me. Also planned is an iTunes list that purchasers of the book can download with all the dance tunes. Possibly played by, um, me. For which I am going to need a crash course in playing for dancers. With no dancers of any of the above dances for several hundred miles in any direction. My father, (a professional musician who is picking a really inconvenient time to step back and let me be the family musician) who has been playing for dancers since 1972, says only, "it's easy." Advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chainyanker Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 just keep smileing. havent got a clue. just wanted to say hey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Brook Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 I don't want this to seem unhelpful but you could come and watch Abbots Bromley, Yorkshire Longsword and Cotswold for real and talk to the musicians there? Abbots Bromley might be more difficult but you would get excellent examples of most other dance forms at a large folk festival such as Sidmouth, Broadstairs or Whitby. You could also look for clips on YouTube. For example Dazbo who posts here from time to time has just uploaded a number of morris dancing clips. Here is a link to his stuff http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=folkbox1 If none of that is possible then just remember rhthym is king, melody (and what we might call "music") is secondary - If people could dance to Jinky Wells with 3 out of tune strings on his violin and no horsehair on his bow you have got a good chance if your concertina is in tune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Morse Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 You need dancers - seriously! The tempos and stresses are unique to the type of dance and tradition (ages and skill of the dancers, how inebriated they are, now hot it is, how long they've been at it already...) I've played for several Morris and Longsword teams for many years (and play some ECD but have danced it for almost 40!)... and there's just no substitute for dancers and seasoned musicians to help you start out. It's not just a matter of phrasing.... Longsword has a special slightly offbeat "throb" and places where the tempo changes subtly. ECD has incredible flowing passages and sharp bits with lots of uplift to the back beat. Morris is... total fluidity - Strong upbeats, lengthened downbeats, crisp end-phrases, slightly quicker capering parts, slow tempo crossings, retarded salutes, stresses and staccato bits.... And all played differnetly for each dancer within the dance! That's why pairing crossing partners is so important! Check out places like the New Mexico Folk Dance page and listings of Morris Teams in the US. Contact CDSS (they'll know some dancers and musicians near to you). A great thing to do to go to a couple dance camp weeks this summer like Pinewoods which has a week right up your alley: English Dance Week August 11 - 18 English country dancing Morris and sword dancing English clog dancing Singing, and instrument workshops Looks like you'll have a busy summer in getting things together for your project - and a lot of fun getting there! Good luck! -- Rich -- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Day Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 Firstly all the best with this project and to your initial approach to it.It is only by discussing these things over with many people that you can get the full picture and I wish you all the best with it. I agree with Richard that you have to see the dancing to appreciate the music , but it is also better if you actually dance to the music to appreciate the dance and understand why the music should be played at the correct speed. The off beat to give bounce to the music and what has been mentioned many times on this site the lift of the music. A strong example of styles is French Dance music compaired with English. French Dancers do not lift their feet and their steps are minute.This means that they dance faster .French Walzes are much faster than English ones,because English Dancers lift up their feet and do on all their dancing.Play a tune too fast for an English Dancer and they cannot keep up with the music,play too slow for French Dancers and it will not fit their Dance.The same goes for Morris the tune played too fast and the leaps are non existant they would be up in the air whilst the tune has moved on to the next part of the dance.Timing is vital and the understanding of the dance. There have been a number of brilliant bands that have played for English Country Dancing and although fantastic to listen to are impossible to dance to.There is very fine dividing line between correct speed and not.It is only by watching the dancers ( not done by many players) that you appreciate how to play the music. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 There have been a number of brilliant bands that have played for English Country Dancing and although fantastic to listen to are impossible to dance to.There is very fine dividing line between correct speed and not.It is only by watching the dancers ( not done by many players) that you appreciate how to play the music.As a North West morris musician myself I couldn't agree more. I also agree about the non-danceability of some bands. However there are some bands who are good to dance to. I would, for instance, nominate the Old Swan Band as being a dancers band par excellence. Rhomilly, please PM me with your snail mail address. We (the band of Mr Wilkins Shilling North West Morris) recently recorded some tunes for some of our dancers who went to the States when most of the band couldn't go. To make sure we got the speed right we recorded them on a practice night with the dancers in front of us. I can burn them onto a CD and send them to you. No, easier than that, I'll turn them into mp3's and put them on a web page for you to download. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Evans Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 (edited) Bravo Rhomyly! This is very exciting. Richard, Al and Chris have given you great advice and with Mr. Timson's MP3's on the way you are in very good hands indeed. Playing for dancers gives us purpose on a very elemental level. Some of my most contented, complete moments as a musician have been playing in a good, tight band for dancers. Enjoy ! Edited June 16, 2007 by Mark Evans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 After a telephone conversation yesterday with a certain American publisher, I can now announce with some confidence that some time next year there will be a book out that takes some basic British folk dances(longsword, morris, English country, and Abbots Bromley), seasonal mummer's plays, and some seasonally appropriate songs, and gives directions, music, scripts, etc. for each. One season of the year per section of the book. Written by, um, me. Also planned is an iTunes list that purchasers of the book can download with all the dance tunes. Possibly played by, um, me. For which I am going to need a crash course in playing for dancers. With no dancers of any of the above dances for several hundred miles in any direction. My father, (a professional musician who is picking a really inconvenient time to step back and let me be the family musician) who has been playing for dancers since 1972, says only, "it's easy." Advice? Rhomily I can't help wondering how you got asked to do this project if you have no experience of playing for dancing yourself? I've been playing for dancing for 10 years or so, and I'm still learning! To learn the subtleties of all those different dance forms in a year or so is a tall order even for a seasoned dance musician. And then to be able to communicate them effectively through recordings and print is also a mammoth task. My suggestion would be to to change your role from author to editor and to seek contributions from a range experienced people. During the process you will surely have a lot of fun and meet some great people. I think this could lead to a really valuable resource. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animaterra Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 Hooray, Rhomylly! I look forward to the book (and the recording). it is also better if you actually dance to the music to appreciate the dance and understand why the music should be played at the correct speed. I couldn't agree more. How about planning a little summer vacation time around getting to some of the dances on the links provided, especially if they allow drop-in musicians! Nelson, NH has a weekly Monday night dance with a very welcoming band. Come on over! (the summer nights are cool and lovely here..) Allison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Morse Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 it is also better if you actually dance to the music to appreciate the dance and understand why the music should be played at the correct speed.To add some to this.... Some dances have a specific speed while others have several to many speeds - all present in the same dance. Many Morris (in particular) tunes/dances have a couple of very pronounced tempo changes (slow crossings), to more subtle changes (capers, retards for regroups and emphasis). Morris bands can sound "good", but they are usually terrible to dance to. Just not responsive enough to the dancers. And speaking playing for dancers.... Playing for dancers gives us purpose on a very elemental level. Some of my most contented, complete moments as a musician have been playing in a good, tight band for dancers. Enjoy !Some of my "lifetime-moments" have also been playing for dancers. And under the right conditions that works in a band situation where the dance works with bands (like contradances), though my most transcendental moments have been as a single musician playing for a team (only 6 well-matched Morris dancers) and especially playing one-on-one (musician to single dancer) for Morris "jigs" and English hornpipes. The rapport between musician/dancer when you can follow/support without other distractions (trying to satisfy MORE than one dancer at the same time) can be awesome. Truly elemental. -- Rich -- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wild Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 it is also better if you actually dance to the music to appreciate the dance and understand why the music should be played at the correct speed. This is a two-way process. I have benefited enormously from playing for a well-disciplined side, who have helped me to improve my time keeping, both in keeping in time with the dance, but also getting me to keep a more regular time even when I am playing solo. - John Wild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 (edited) Morris bands can sound "good", but they are usually terrible to dance to. Just not responsive enough to the dancers. Just to qualify that slightly. I've long felt that Cotswold morris is served best by a solo musician, but the North West clog morris tradition is for large bands - pretty well the bigger the better. This suits the style of dance very well, and you'd never be able to hear a solo musician over the sound of the clogs! The Bobsworth Band - the musicians for Mr Wilkins Shilling - is now up to 9 regular members and is much appreciated by the dancers. Chris Edited June 17, 2007 by Chris Timson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 No, easier than that, I'll turn them into mp3's and put them on a web page for you to download. Well this has got me to do something I've been meaning to do for a while and put up a page for the musicians. It's here, and it has all the mp3's on it. Hope it's of use. Cheers, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Besser Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 (edited) Advice? Others with more experience have said it well, but I'll add: playing for dancers without dancers being present is like driving blindfolded. Periodically I've had to make recordings for groups I've played with when I couldn't attend practice. It's VERY difficult without watching the dancers and adjusting to what they're doing. Listen to the CD "The Magic of Morris." Some cuts were done in studios, without dancers; some were live field recordings of dances being performed. A huge difference in how they sound, beyond the clatter of sticks and jingling of bells. If you're making your recording just to give readers a flavor of the tunes, it won't be a problem. If you're playing to instruct them on how to play for dancers, it'll be more of an issue. Given your remote location, you may not have a choice about working with real, live dancers. In that case, I'd suggest simplifying things. It's not about the melody, it's about punching out the rhythm. Try to convey that in your recordings; emphasize strong, clear rhythm, avoid the temptation to make the melodies too elaborate and pretty. Edited June 17, 2007 by Jim Besser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 Periodically I've had to make recordings for groups I've played with when I couldn't attend practice. It's VERY difficult without watching the dancers and adjusting to what they're doing. Indeed so. The recordings above were made on a practice night with the dancers dancing - but they had taken their clogs off! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lester Bailey Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 (edited) Listen to the CD "The Magic of Morris." Some cuts were done in studios, without dancers; some were live field recordings of dances being performed. A huge difference in how they sound, beyond the clatter of sticks and jingling of bells. Couldn't agree with you more, but modesty prevents me telling you who the musician for Grand Union Morris (complete with bells and sticks and calls) is on the CD I'm slightly confused with the thread title of Playing for Dancers vs playing for fun. I achieve both at the same time. As to advice it depends on what you are playing for, all the advice re playing for morris in this thread seems sound to me but playing for ceilidh/barn dance is much more to do with providing a suitable speed steady beat. As some one already said rhythm is every thing, when I took over a melodeon player for my band I was instructed that if I lost the tune just keep the basses going and no one will notice. Edited June 17, 2007 by Lester Bailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Cayford Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 For which I am going to need a crash course in playing for dancers. With no dancers of any of the above dances for several hundred miles in any direction. While the advice to go watch dancers in Great Britian is great (and would be a lot of fun), there are things slightly closer. Bedlam Bells in Phoenix is probably closest and could show you border morris and Cotswold. It's only about 700 miles. San Diego has a team as well. If you ever come through the San Francisco area, let me know. I could arrange demonstrations of Cotswold, border, rapper, longsword, English clog, and Northwest clog. We have some very good dance musicians in the area who would probably be happy to talk to you. Actually, gathering all the local fores and dance musicians and having an afternoon workshop/roundtable discussion on playing for different dance styles sounds like a blast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhomylly Posted June 17, 2007 Author Share Posted June 17, 2007 Some quick clarifications: The book is aimed at people with no previous exposure to this material. They will all be beginners. My one advantage is I've been to Pinewoods several times, grew up going to Berea Christmas school and been on various morris teams, part of ECD performance groups, etc. etc. I think the iTune list is to give groups with no musicians (or musicians who can't read dots) the music. I do not expect the people who are interested in this stuff to be interested in performing it in public. I do expect them to incorporate it into their personal or small group religious practice. That's the focus of the book. The only morris dance in the book is Shepherd's Hey, which, fortunately, I have done...a lot. What I'm looking for is discussion on difference in emphasis, (Oom vs. Pa, etc), phrasing, tempo. That sort of stuff When I play in session, the "audience" (other musicians) is different than an audience of people "using" the music, i.e. dancers. Hence, my wondering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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