Mark Evans Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 (edited) We aren't going to let this go are we! This topic erupts periodically like a cronic case of Athlete's Foot and just gets everyone itchy. The price is the price. If I told the two progeney still under me roof that private school was out out an' me lad going into his 3rd year at a private University that he'd best look for a cheaper alternative and take out enough loans to put himself in a crushing debt until he attains my age, me darlin' an' I could afford a lot of nice things. Why I'd not be at the job site today at all! I'd be sittin' on the terrace of a lovely Agritursimo I have a particular fondness for, overlooking Perugia on one side and Assisi on the other. Bout' now, genteelly sloshed on the estate red wine with my vintage Wheatstone (buttery brown leather bellows and gold tipped buttons) on one side and me darlin' on the other we'd be planning a little road trip to, well just anywhere we wanted . Back in the land of reality I have afforded myself a Morse which turns out to be a damn fine concertina, will eat my bag lunch on a bench under a beautiful maple tree conversing with me chums (Morse at the ready) and that ain't half bad. We make choices. Edited June 21, 2007 by Mark Evans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toshea Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Hello I somehow think we have it good....Yes it costs a lot of money to get a great concertina. It is the most I have ever spent for anything beyond a home. It is the only thing I would like to possess to play and make my brief existence a bit sweeter, that costs as much. I have never purchased a car for half of what I have paid for a concertina. I am glad I could manage it and still keep my home and food on the table and still have some money to keep my wife in frillies and toilet water. As my appreciation of concertinas evolved and became deeper the price I was happy to pay for one grew also. My main point may not be comforting to someone who cannot afford a good concertina.....But so many exceptional quality guitars, fiddles and other instruments only start at the price of the best Jeffries, Wheatstone, Dipper, Suttner..etc that I feel thankful that for that price I can hold and play and enjoy the best there is, and afford it gladly. Gosh, it's great that you are happy with the high prices of concertinas over there in San Francisco US, but some of us don't have inhereted wealth or are not bankers and really can't affort those prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Weinstein Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Five years ago, your options were a lot worse. There was nothing on the low end like the Jack/Jackie/Rochelle, which meant that you were looking at a fairly significant outlay just to start. And the prices of the accordion-reeded mid-range instruments haven't gone up significantly in that time. What has gone up are the prices of vintage instruments (especially the high-value ones). Additionally, there are more modern concertina-reeded instruments being built, with appropriate pricing. Finally, if you are buying an instrument from the UK, the exchange rate on currency has not been your friend. So, in short form: Options ranging from downright inexpensive to moderate have increased over the past half decade, new high end modern instruments are being made, and the vintage instruments (which by definition are not going to go up in availability) have become significantly more expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toshea Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 So we have a choice between the "real" concertinas with real concertina reeds and the, as they have been called in this forum, "concertina shaped accordians" with the accordian reeds which go for much less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m3838 Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Hello I somehow think we have it good....Yes it costs a lot of money to get a great concertina. It is the most I have ever spent for anything beyond a home. It is the only thing I would like to possess to play and make my brief existence a bit sweeter, that costs as much. I have never purchased a car for half of what I have paid for a concertina. I am glad I could manage it and still keep my home and food on the table and still have some money to keep my wife in frillies and toilet water. As my appreciation of concertinas evolved and became deeper the price I was happy to pay for one grew also. My main point may not be comforting to someone who cannot afford a good concertina.....But so many exceptional quality guitars, fiddles and other instruments only start at the price of the best Jeffries, Wheatstone, Dipper, Suttner..etc that I feel thankful that for that price I can hold and play and enjoy the best there is, and afford it gladly. Gosh, it's great that you are happy with the high prices of concertinas over there in San Francisco US, but some of us don't have inhereted wealth or are not bankers and really can't affort those prices. It's an interesting topic. Some good information surfaces now and then. I think the reason for the price topic to be relevant, is that a concertina (and accordion too) is like a third world country, there are rich and poor, but no middle class. If a Chinese Guitar at $300, or a Korean up-right Piano at $500 can be very playable, and serve a long time, same price for accordion/concertina gives you garbage can waste. While there are few people, who may be satisfied with their Stagis, or started on cheap 20 button, they are in minority in their appreciation. Probably just got lucky with the quality, or have very low expectations. My daughter's piano teacher, a professional with 40 years of experience, is very happy with her Korean Spinett, and prefers it's bright sound to my mellow Yamaha. Playability wise they're the same. When I bought my first Button Accordion, Parrott, at $300 from "Lark in the Morning", I thought it's used in OK condition. I brought it to the shop and after some $100 extra got it playable and tuned. If I knew it was brand new, I'd bring it back to the store. Cheap concertinas that are decent are Wim Wakker's Rochelle and Jackie for $300. Some claim you can get nice playable Lachenal for $500. Never seen one. Then we go up to $800 (lucky)-$1000(!) for low-to-middle quality. I had Weatstone and George Case for $1000. So-so. $1000 is a lot of money for So-so. Imagine a guitar at this price! So if "rising popularity" of concertina is a fact, Wim Wakker will get rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdms Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 So we have a choice between the "real" concertinas with real concertina reeds and the, as they have been called in this forum, "concertina shaped accordians" with the accordian reeds which go for much less. Not quite. The hybrids--Morse et al--do use accordion reeds, but they're mounted in concertina-type reed pans. Hybrids are far better than "concertina-shaped accordions," in which the reeds are mounted in accordion-type reed blocks. It's still well over $1k for even a used hybrid, but there are several makers producing very good instruments for a price within the reach of those of us with, shall we say, modest incomes (even if we have to swallow hard and close our eyes when paying that price). jdms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m3838 Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 It's still well over $1k for even a used hybrid, but there are several makers producing very good instruments for a price within the reach of those of us with, shall we say, modest incomes Really? Who does and what prices are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 folks, folks, i have to "mea culpa" about a mis-type---i meant, people ordering custom dippers are NOT complaining, as far as i know. i have been web-absent since this sloppy typing job, and would have corrected much earlier. what i was trying and failing to say was, no one would have any cause to complain about prices or wait if they ordered a fancy, super-extra special jobs, but so far as i knew, no one WAS complaining. sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Weinstein Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 The price on a Tedrow is the same as it was 4 years ago. $1850, plus the cost of any options you choose to add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaryK Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 It's still well over $1k for even a used hybrid, but there are several makers producing very good instruments for a price within the reach of those of us with, shall we say, modest incomes Really? Who does and what prices are you talking about? I assume "jdms" is talking about the concertinas made by Herrington, Edgley, Morse, Tedrow and Geuns-Wakker et al which have a price range of about $1800-$2500US. Surely, you are aware of these makers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 on the subject of hybrids, i submit that in the sense of button action, bellows, build cosmetics, reed responsiveness, etc---the fact is that some of these hybrids are just about as high-quality as a jeffries, a suttner, a dipper---they just don't have traditional concertina reeds. i'm not saying one doesn't have a right to prefer or want traditional concerta reeds. i'm just saying that some of the hybrid concertinas are fantastic quality insturments, not "for the price," or whatever, but, fantastic quality instruments period, full-stop. another way of putting this is that the preference for the sound of "traditional" reed might be described as cultural, not qualitative. i believe it is on this site that someone posted at some point the results of a blindfold-ish taste test in which listeners knowing nothing about concertinas or which sound they were "supposed" to prefer, overwhelmingly preferred the accordion-reeded concertina sound. this has been my informal experience with listeners who are in the dark about the fact that different concertina reeds even exist. they just love the sound of the accordion-reeded ones, but sometimes they find the traditional ones quacky or comical or silly-sounding. i personally love both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m3838 Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 It's still well over $1k for even a used hybrid, but there are several makers producing very good instruments for a price within the reach of those of us with, shall we say, modest incomes Really? Who does and what prices are you talking about? I assume "jdms" is talking about the concertinas made by Herrington, Edgley, Morse, Tedrow and Geuns-Wakker et al which have a price range of about $1800-$2500US. Surely, you are aware of these makers. The phrazing suggested that hybrids are way over $1K (too expencive), BUT there are others (several!), who make instruments within the reach (inexpencive, slightly over $1K) or 'ordinary' people. Remembering the promise to produce 30 button Anglo at $500 I thought it's been done. Again, I have to stress, that the resume of all the past discussions was (and still is) that concertina makers of today are small shops, with limited output power, who don't really care about inexpencive "assembly line" instruments, because: - They are already backlogged with waiting lists of 4 months to 10 years - It's more fun to produce a quality instrument than some entry level beginner model. - There is not enough funds for upgrading the equipment and no justification for mass production. It's a work of love, dearly in need of some rich concertina playing mecenate, who will shovel few millions just for the fun of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toshea Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 The price on a Tedrow is the same as it was 4 years ago. $1850, plus the cost of any options you choose to add. Yea, like a bellows and buttons!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toshea Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 And what does accordian reeds mean? When the Italian makers make the reeds they sell to the middle makers, are they labeled as "accordian reeds, made for a concertina"? Or are they labeled as concertina reeds? Which just happen to be made by an Italian who makes a lot of accordians. What say you Edgely and Marcus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Weinstein Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 The price on a Tedrow is the same as it was 4 years ago. $1850, plus the cost of any options you choose to add. Yea, like a bellows and buttons!? Prices Standard Hexagonal 30 button Anglo $1850 Mahogany Anglo 30 buttons Available in c/g Hardwood reedpan Antonelli steel reeds, each individually hand-tuned Handcut fretwork Delrin buttons, lightweight and quiet 6 fold traditional handmade bellows, cut ragboard; leather with linen hinges Riveted stainless steel action Tedrow Anglos are designed for easy disassembly for repairs and maintenance http://hmi.homewood.net/standard/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asdormire Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 One lesson learned in my childhood was that an item was only worth what someone was willing to pay for it. One of my brothers bought one pony for $5 and got another one for free. He contracted a livestock hauler (my father, but that was one of the ways he kept us fed) to haul the ponies to the local horse auction in Fenton. He received $50 dollars for the pair, and paid my father his fee of $20. He thought he had really made out. The man who bought them also thought he made out, as he also doubled his money when he sold them. Everybody up the line thought they had outdid the person below them, as Dad pointed out to my brother. When it comes right down to it, it takes a buyer and a seller, and both need to agree on a price. Good concertinas are rare, and while we are a small community, most of us eventually want a decent instrument. And lets face it, we haven't even got close to price what some of the really good vintage guitars, banjos and mandolins bring. I've upgraded twice know, starting with a cheap chinese box to a decent old italian box with a wooden action to my Tedrow. But it took time, and the access to more resources. I am happy with those two boxes, both work, there fine for the oldtime and western music I'm playing. I would recomend a Tedrow to anyone, it has a wonderful sound and it doesn't sound like an accordian. It may not have that concertina honk those "traditional boxes" have, but I am not playing Irish music either. Would I like to have a Jefffries or Wheatstone? Sure, but do I need one? No. admittedly, Robin and I do look around for bargains, and occasionally we find a decent instrument at a great price--no concertinas yet, but we have found some decent stringed instruments over the years. (I take that back, I did pay less for the Tedrow, than $1850, but not a lot less, but as far as I'm concerned I received a great bargain) Finding a bargain takes time patience and some luck. If you have your heart set on a certain instrument, sometimes it takes planning and savings, and we have done that as well especially when we first started to upgrade Robin into some better instruments. And we are in the process of planning to get Robin into a better classical guitar. It isn't going to happen right away, but it will happen. Instead of complaining about the costs, make a plan, figure out what you are going to spend, and start saving. Sometimes life is going to give you a set back, but other times you are going to be at the right spot at the right time. That is life works. It took me a long time to figure this out, but I am happier for it. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Crabb Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 A little bird told me that a certain concertina dealer bids for concertinas on ebay that he has no intentions of buying and doesn't even want. Just to keep the prices high. This made my blood boil. Am i just being naive, or does it make anyone else cross? I would love a better machine but i haven't got a snowball's chance in hell when the dealers fix the price or have i? sorry i just wanted to blow off some steam I feel, that after observing this thread for a while, I would make some comment. I do not deal in concertinas. Although it looks that it is the 'dealers' that are inflating or sometimes the 'makers' influencing the prices of used concertinas, it has to be considered it might indeed be prospective customers who are willing or offering to pay what may seem massive amounts to obtain certain instruments and the reason why. Dealers. Since becoming involved again with the concertina community, I am perplexed by the 'hype' that has been generated and surrounds Anglo's bearing the Jeffries name. The relentless opinions that these instruments were the best ever made has only fuelled the ambition of people to own one at the expense of consideration of other makes that may be perfectly suitable to requirement. If the money is forthcoming, who can blame a dealer for accepting it. No one is forced to buy and if the market refused to pay then prices would fall. I must say here that there are reputable dealers trading fairly. Makers. With new instruments, the price has to reflect the time spent in making, the costs involved in production and the cost of living in the location where manufacture takes place. Generally any profit made is regarded as a bonus. It must also be realised that those 'lone' traditional makers with long waiting lists who are solely engaged in making concertinas for their income, have to predict what the cost will be at the actual time of making. A high price now for a traditional instrument may seem reasonable in a few years. It has been suggested that todays current makers enjoy a 'good' living. A living - maybe, good - doubtful. In my own case, depending on the concertina, if I were to make an instrument, I may spend 200 to 300 hours on it. If I were able to charge the same hourly rate (GBP70) as a local mechanic charges to fix cars then my instruments would be priced at GBP 14000 - 21000 and that is what I would call a fantasic living. Unfortunately the price people would like to pay for a new traditional concertina results in a pitiful hourly rate. Obviously those makers that have the wherewithall to invest in sophisticated making equipment or outsource will probably reduce the price of traditional instruments to a level affordable by all and then the existing 'trad' makers will be able to retire and enjoy the assumed fruits of their labours. I hope though that there will always be someone with the money to support a maker and have a concertina hand-made. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wim wakker Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 I'm sorry Wim, I've obviously missed something, but how can you take a finite pool of antique instruments regarded as unique and say '25% of the price is it's true value and the other 75% is trade markup'? Dismissing idiots and obsessives (and I'm prepared to grant you there are a higher proportion of them in the Jeffries buying market than usual) the price is the price, is the price, surely, set by the market. Dirge, what I meant was that the price of most vintage/antique musical instruments is close to the actual value of the instrument. The ‘A’ part in my previous post. Instruments are firstly judged by their musical value, not the fact that they are antique. The price of a vintage violin is based on its musical qualities. Not the fact that it is old. In fact, the value of most old musical instruments is lower than that of a new one. Most vintage guitars, pianos, brass instruments, etc. are cheaper than their new counterparts. The concertina is/was an exception because until a few years ago the only concertinas available were vintage ones. This is changing very fast at the moment. At this moment the market price of vintage anglos does not reflect the quality of the instruments. You can buy a beautiful Wheatstone duet or english for less than what you have to pay for an anglo at the moment. When they were new, both duets and englishes were more expensive and often of better quality than the anglos. The reeds Wheatstone used in their top anglos were the same as the ones used in the standard hexagonal english and duet models (short scaled). At this moment vintage anglo prices are determined by what ever the seller decides to ask, which is often not based on any quality facts, but just on how bad the buyer wants an anglo, and the availability of instruments at that moment. There is a big chance that someday (soon), when there are enough new instruments on the market, the balance might tip in favor of the new (concertina reeded) instruments and deflate the vintage prices. As I said, this has happened to several vintage instruments. Wim Wakker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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