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Keeping The Prices High


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5000 pounds a fiddle, I should have become a fiddle maker!

Before committing yourself to that conclusion, shouldn't you check out what that comes down to in a per-hour wage? :unsure:

I have made some fair violas in the past, and find that making a good concertina takes as much time (actually working, not counting drying time for the varnish). There are a whole lot of luthiers out there, and the price has less to do with the time expended in making a viloin as in the skill you bring to the time you spend in creating an instrument that will please more players helping your reputation and your price. 5000 pounds sounds like a lot, but you can easily spend twice as much. I played an old French violin once that cost around $20,000. I personally preffered a new one at $5000, but then I'm no classical musician and I didn't care about the name value. The big point here is that to make a decent living as a luthier, you have to be pretty darn good.

Dana

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i'm with mr. johnson.....well.....actually, i'll go farther. while some of the century-old concertinas are great, by no means all are. but even if great, from a value-per-dollar standpoint, it is my opinion that they are at present ridiculously overpriced (again---from a value-for-the-goods standpoint) due to the silliness of the market in vintage concertinas. one feature universally occurring in silly markets is scams, as we know from our vigilant c.net scam alert squad. another feature universally occurring in silly markets is price shilling, or whatever you want to call it. the bottom line is that you have the choice and the freedom to participate in that silly market. you also have the choice and the freedom to "just say 'no' ."

 

which brings us to better values. fantastic values are to be had in the high-grade hybrid concertinas. and fair-at-the-least, excellent-at-the-best, value is to be had in the new "authentic-reed" concertinas, if you are willing to save up & wait---either order, or watch the used market, poised to spring, and do your due diligence if and when a like-new box appears on a reputable listing. it's not too much of an exaggeration at present to note as an example that with patience and careful shopping, you could come close to acquiring one new or mint 30-button "authentic" concertina, plus a second new or mint "authentic" concertina (say, a b-flat f, or a 38-key) for not much over the prices being had for some of the jeffries changing hands out there. it's your choice.

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Anyone would think that ebay is the ONLY way concertinas can be aquired. You need to know a bit about what you are buying and whether it is or can be made playable.

Why not get one from the much maligned dealer - they have to be competitive as well - if the dealer overprices them, he/she/it won't sell many will they?.

 

Granted many famous name anglos are overpriced, but who actually NEEDS a 3 grand plus concertina unless they are really, really serious players.

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but who actually NEEDS a 3 grand plus concertina unless they are really, really serious players.
Who really needs to get their clothes from anywhere but a thrift shop? Who actually needs art? Or rare books? Or to eat meat? ....

 

Reminds me of a very interesting thread a few months ago about who really deserves to have a good concertina.

 

-- Rich --

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The practice that OP describes - bidding up the price in a market to keep the price high - is a form of market manipulation that certainly occasionally happens in financial markets, in which case it is illegal, but often hard to prove.

 

For example, a major currency speculator, let's call him George, may have gone long in Ruritanian Crowns. Or George may have gone long in something big that is priced in Ruritanian Crowns, perhaps shares in the Ruritanian Mining, Manufacturing and Agriculture Company. George wants to maintain the value of his holding. So if George sees the Ruritanian Crown looking weak, he buys some more, to keep it up. Since it is a fairly small currency, George doesn't have to buy much to keep it up. George wants to maintain the impression that the Ruritanian Crown is a dependable currency. George's ultimate aim is to create an aura of confidence in the market, so that when the day arises for him to sell out he can do so profitably. Of course there is always a risk that the market will collapse and George will now have even more Ruritanian Crowns to make a loss on.

 

It is hard to prove this is manipulation, even if it is, since it is very similar to an entirely sensible and benign trading behaviour of buying things that are underpriced. An analyst once explained to me that if she had recommended that a certain stock or currency was a "buy" at a certain price, then if the price fell arguably it was even more of a "buy". So buying more every time the price falls is logical. The counter-argument is that the falling price tends to suggest you are wrong. So in the real world my analyst trader friend has to re-examine her previous analysis to see if she was wrong and why the price has fallen.

 

It can go very, very wrong. For example, a trader called Norman, whose day-job was Chancellor of the Exchequer, thought that he could manipulate the market in the currency of his own country. But the weight of the money was against him, so he failed. One Wednesday, he lost more money than the total all the money the nationalised industries of that country had lost throughout all recorded history. One might expect that he is now mouldering in the Tower, with regular torture. But all that happened is that he was resigned. He still occasionally haunts talk shows, usually saying it was all John's fault.

 

UK bookmakers (betting offices) are sometimes accused of manipulating betting markets. They commonly offer to accept bets in their offices at "Starting Price" or SP, which means is the price prevailing with the on-course bookmakers at the off. (Serious betters never bet at SP, but the majority of ordinary betters do.) A large bookmaker may have far more turnover nationally than the on-course market. If they find themselves with a lot of money on a particular horse, they will use an agent on the course to put a bit of money into the on-course market on that horse to take its price down. They expect to make a loss on those bets, but it will reduce their exposure in the off-course market by a much larger amount. Of course other bookmakers might be doing this too. So one could argue it is merely market equilibration rather than market manipulation.

 

Going back to our hypothetical concertina dealer. A dealer may have a large stock of instruments. He does not want to see the value of that stock fall. The ebay market for concertinas is rather thin - we see large fluctuations in prices on ebay. In terms of market manipulation, the dealer doesn't want to see concertinas visibly sold too cheap, and ebay is very visible, so he might see the value in pushing the price up by entering that market. He can thereby more easily justify higher prices for his own stock to buyers who might be watching the ebay market. Of course, he may simply end up with a lot of over-valued concertinas, if the market really has moved against him. The alternative way of looking at this is that he simply buys concertinas when they look too cheap. Since he has is own, high volume, market, he may have a better idea of what they are worth than the active ebay bidders on a slow Wednesday in January.

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A little bird told me that a certain concertina dealer bids for concertinas on ebay that he has no intentions of buying and doesn't even want. Just to keep the prices high. This made my blood boil. Am i just being naive, or does it make anyone else cross?

 

What Gilly describes isn't 'shill bidding.' If a dealer is bidding on concertinas he "has no intentions of buying, and doesn't even want," he runs the risk of getting stuck with them. 'Shill bidding" is anonymously bidding on your own item, which means that if no one tops your bid, you still have to pay the auctioneer's commission (or eBay's fee). Not a very profitable strategy, it would seem. And it would take an awful lot of shill bidding to influence prices on the open market. Simply putting a reserve price on the item accomplishes the same thing, without penalty!

 

 

 

 

My apologies, I misread the initial complaint, it sounded like shill bidding but you are correct, if another party bids just to make the selling price higher and they are not working with the auctioner then that is not really "shill" bidding.

 

Thats just being a jerk.

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I agree with everything Richard says. Also, what ever I pay for an instrument really doesn't matter so much as they are a good investment. I could sell my Dipper now (it's not for sale!) for much more than I paid for it three years ago. So really I get to play it for free, and someday my kids will sell it and probably get a very good return on my initial investment. That's how I explain it to my wife anyway!!

Alan Caffrey.

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Granted many famous name anglos are overpriced, but who actually NEEDS a 3 grand plus concertina unless they are really, really serious players.

 

It's pretty much impossible to get any 30-button anglo concertina with traditional reeds for less than $3,000 in playable shape. I'm not sure we want to get into a discussion over "needs;" as someone else mentioned it sounds a bit too much like the "who deserves which concertina" thread from a few months ago.

 

Increased demand has unfortunately made certain vintage instruments expensive and difficult to obtain, and has created long waiting lists for instruments by new makers. It has also spurred many new makers to enter the market, with a variety of products both traditional and innovative to cater to various price points. While the now-greater popularity of the concertina has put top vintage instruments out of the financial reach of a significant population, it has enabled many people to continue or begin operating as concertina makers and/or restorers, and these people in turn have ensured that everyone can have access to a reasonable instrument for cost, from the Rochelle on up to a Dipper (or insert other great modern maker here).

 

Without that extreme price pressure at the top and correlated demand, none of this would have been possible. And I think this innovation and dissemination of concertinas is only to the good. :)

 

Not that I don't wish I could pick a Jeffries up fully restored for under $1,000......... :ph34r:

 

-David

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Going back to our hypothetical concertina dealer. A dealer may have a large stock of instruments. He does not want to see the value of that stock fall. The ebay market for concertinas is rather thin - we see large fluctuations in prices on ebay. In terms of market manipulation, the dealer doesn't want to see concertinas visibly sold too cheap, and ebay is very visible, so he might see the value in pushing the price up by entering that market. He can thereby more easily justify higher prices for his own stock to buyers who might be watching the ebay market.

Macchiavelli, move over. The concertina dealers have clearly got the market in deviousnes totally sown up! :ph34r:

 

Chris

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A little reality check.

We recently booked a condo in Maui. - Ouch!

Then we started booking the airfare... :blink:

My my !!!

How about $800 a ticket?

How many Dippers are going to be wasted during Summer vacation?

Can I "justify" a good instrument, or should I "justify" a Condo in Maui instead?

Grand Wailea room is minimum $500 a night. How many of us spend how much every year on Alaska Cruise and still claim we can't afford a nice instrument? Regardless of the car we drive, and stupid taxedos we rent every year for Company gatherings. With the Governments we have now we'll probably start counting pennies very soon, but we're not there yet.

For the newcomers: Welcome to the "Well-to-do Club", I mean Concertina community.

Isn't it funny, musicians have long been the poorest class of people, yet musical instruments in general are very expencive.

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A little reality check. We recently booked a condo in Maui. - Ouch! Then we started booking the airfare... :blink: My my !!!How about $800 a ticket? Grand Wailea room is minimum $500 a night. How many of us spend how much every year on Alaska Cruise and still claim we can't afford a nice instrument? Regardless of the car we drive, and stupid taxedos we rent every year for Company gatherings. For the newcomers: Welcome to the "Well-to-do Club", I mean Concertina community.

Isn't it funny, musicians have long been the poorest class of people, yet musical instruments in general are very expencive.

I'm confused. :blink: I don't know anyone that does ANY of those things you mention (let alone every year!). My vacations consist of getting away to a local dance/music camp every 2nd or 3rd year if I can get in on scholarship or as staff. I know very few people in our concertina community who are in the "well-to-do" range....

 

-- Rich -- (in name and non-pecuniary things)

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I'm confused. :blink: I don't know anyone that does ANY of those things you mention (let alone every year!). My vacations consist of getting away to a local dance/music camp every 2nd or 3rd year if I can get in on scholarship or as staff. I know very few people in our concertina community who are in the "well-to-do" range....

 

-- Rich -- (in name and non-pecuniary things)

 

There are many among us, that have means beyond average. I concluded this from some threads about how many top instruments people have gathered, what cars they like to drive, how often they go to overseas' concertina camps etc.

But then, they're not the makers, they're the users.

One that is of small means, is better off with many other instruments, than with concertina, where a decent one begins with $1500.

Besides, how many children do you have, that need Sun and warm ocean?

And there you go.

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Neither poverty nor wealth entitles anyone to a good musical instrument (but wealth will always have the edge :P ).

 

Who doesn't dream of finding a fine old concertina at the back of a dusty shelf in a cluttered little shop where the doddering old shopkeeper recalls buying it for £50 'way back when...and is eager to sell it now for twice what he paid? :rolleyes: But dreams dissolve in the face of reality - those days are long gone. In today's internet-linked world, every instrument and antique dealer on earth knows concertina prices to the penny. B)

 

Demand for good concertinas is up, supply is only s-l-o-w-l-y improving. The talented craftsmen of today deserve a decent livelihood. So natural market forces dictate that good instruments cost good money. Be glad to know that whatever you can pay, it will probably be less than what the instrument will be worth to you in the long haul. :D

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The ultimate answer to the Dilemma is State sponsored Stipend for Craftsmen and Artists. A dreaded Socialist thought. A State sponsorship?? Then what, socialised Women?? Those Commies, when will they learn?

 

 

Socialized women...hmmm...I started to say "sign me up"...then I remembered the East German Olympic womens' swim team...

 

Run away!....Run....A...Way!

 

 

;)

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Anyone would think that ebay is the ONLY way concertinas can be aquired. You need to know a bit about what you are buying and whether it is or can be made playable.

Why not get one from the much maligned dealer - they have to be competitive as well - if the dealer overprices them, he/she/it won't sell many will they?.

 

I agree. And calling the legitimate dealers nasty names isn't going to help any of us get that dream concertina. All it does is chase them away from accessible markets such as eBay. Its not easy to visit a shop in person, or to dig up contacts, though if you have a dealer in your neigborhood that would be the way to go.

 

As for me, I usually have to explain what the squawking box is.

 

Take a look at how much a custom Dipper fetches, then compare that to a restored vintage instrument, unless its particuliarly rare (likea Jeffries), the New concertina actaully costs more.

 

I have a junko-german box with wooden action: it sounds far better than the first chinese aluminum-and-rice paper box I got for the same price, and the buttons although moving at an angle don't get stuck under the "fretwork" like the Beijing special.

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