Concertina Reeds

[William]

First, I want to say how much I appreciate this web site and the people who contribute...it's been a great help to me.

 

A question.......it seems that one has to pay big bucks to get a 30 button anglo with "real" concertina reeds. My question is why doesn't everyone use them? Are concertina reeds that difficult to come by? From a business perspective, it would seem that the first guy who built a mid price concertina with concetina reeds rather than accordian reeds would take the cake.

 

Parenthetically, I'ver read somewhere on this site that in a blind test (over the internet)....most people were not able to differeniate between accordian and true concertina reeds.

 

 

Thanks....

 

Bill

[Richard Morse]

My question is why doesn't everyone use them?

Because the few people who DO make them are unwilling to sell them to other people. Also, those reedmakers are unable to make reeds in large enough quantities even if they were amenable to selling them. Another reason is that the method of installing the reeds in concertinas is considerably more difficult (and hence would make the instrument more expensive) that with accordion reeds.

 

Are concertina reeds that difficult to come by?

Yes. NO ONE makes concertina reed sets for sale.

 

From a business perspective, it would seem that the first guy who built a mid price concertina with concertina reeds rather than accordian reeds would take the cake.

That would seem so! Unfortunately this also means that that guy would have to make his own reeds (or coerce someone else to make them for him) which is an immense undertaking. I speak from experience.

 

Parenthetically, I'ver read somewhere on this site that in a blind test (over the internet)....most people were not able to differeniate between accordian and true concertina reeds.

I tried that myself too and found it very difficult to differentiate. Problems include the quality of the mic used to record the instruments, the record bit rate/compression levels/format, and my computer sound card and speakers. The concertinas would be much easier to differentiate in person.

 

Besides the sound qualities, concertina and accordion reeds have very different response qualities which can be better personally experienced rather than over the internet.

Edited January 12, 2004 by Richard Morse

[Paul Groff]

William

 

There seems to be no simple and unambiguous term for reeds constructed in the traditional "english concertina" style. Actually, the 19th century firms in London used a variety of forms including riveted reeds (see 2 recent topics in the History section of this Forum). The early WHeatstones, Scates, etc. used nickel-silver or brass tongues (also described as "vibrators," "springs," "the part that oscillates.."), so calling them "steel reeds" is not right (to say nothing of the many other kinds of reed traditionally and correctly called "steel reeds"). But the screw-clamped ones with steel tongues became a kind of quality standard for many years.

 

So let's say we are talking about a "five-piece english-style concertina reed with steel tongue, whose frame is tapered to fit a dovetailed slot in a chambered wooden reedpan"

(to be explicit at the expense of brevity). Also called at the time "screwed steel notes." Many of those who know concertinas the best, play them the best, and have been around them the longest prefer this type of reed in a concertina. (See comment by Alan Day, elsewhere in this Forum, today). I am NOT saying they are "right" to do so in any absolute or objective sense (as if there could be such).

 

Such reeds and the reedpans that complement them are very time-consuming to make and will always be expensive to make new. There was a time when, due to low demand vs. supply, second hand instruments of this construction were available VERY cheaply, and so (even after the cost of minimal repairs) were available to those who would never have invested in the fair cost of a new one built this way. Some would say these are still too cheap (again, see Alan's posting), but if so the imbalance has been slowly correcting itself -- a very good thing for the sake of the wonderful modern makers, and for the future of the instrument. The mid-twentieth century "excess supply" of vintage concertinas benefitted the young, the beginners, and the amateurs, and its passing is mourned by many! But I suggest that there were negative effects on the community as a whole, when the interests of the makers, the professionals, the best repairmen and tuners, and even the fine old instruments themselves are considered. Some have seen the result as a "race to the bottom" in the restoration work and in the newly made instruments as quality chased price down the toilet. In recognizing this general current I mean in no way to disparage the standards maintained by the mid-twentieth century makers, who in retrospect seem to have done more than could have been asked of them. Their devotion to the concertina was reflected in great generosity to their customers. But even when these makers turned out a solid, honest instrument, there is no denying that luxury materials and details of ornamentation seem to have diminished, and in some cases, tone and playability may have needed to be compromised in an effort to keep the business going.

 

What to say when some people can't hear a difference, or feel a difference in response? Only, for them, money spent on the more expensive choice may be wasted... unless it enables them to learn better. "Some people" or even "a majority" and certainly "the makers themselves of the cheaper alternative" will never convince me that bad beer tastes like good beer, bad music sounds as good as good music, etc. Of course we are all free to decide what is "good" and "bad," but I detect a trend in the internet generation that those new to a subject try to ascertain quality by a poll of those they can query. This is not the way to learn your way around a complex and subtle subject. I personally am most interested in learning from the opinions of a select few whose experience and abilities I most respect (in the case of instruments, these are the musicians and makers I admire).

 

The musical instrument business has always been challenged by this ethical dilemma: the biggest sales tend to go to those who promise more than they deliver. The customer wants to be told "A is just as good as B, but costs less." Very often, the guy who tells him this will get his money and stay in business, whether or not the statement is true (or possible).

 

Now, to take another perspective, at times there are really minor revolutions in instrument construction that may make that elusive "quality instrument" much more affordable. I think of Fender's solid-body guitars, ridiculed by Gibson and the other makers of fine arch-tops. Fender solved the price/quality problem by cutting a gordian knot -- he redefined what an electric guitar could be, and thus was able to make one that worked well (although NOT sounding, looking, playing the same, it had its own kind of "quality") for much less money. Those early Esquires and Teles are now valued way out of proportion to their construction cost. But even modern Fender Teles (and G & Ls, the "real Fenders") have much more quality than the imitators sold in huge numbers as "just as good as a Fender but less!" The cycle continues.

 

For many applications the old-style archtop electrics will never be supplanted by the instruments of different construction, and new ones are made today at much higher prices than solid-bodies.

The pros know what they need, and the students and amateurs do their best to copy the pros.

 

So...if you like the sound, response, long-term value, maintainability etc. of traditional-type concertina reeds, they may never get cheaper in real terms unless everyone else starts to dislike them (always a possibility in human history). In general, and with rare exceptions, mistrust any claims by sellers that a much cheaper form of musical instrument is "just as good" (sounding, lasting, etc.) as the ones the professionals like. It's not true of digital Hammond organ clones, of imitation vintage Martin acoustic guitars, and I doubt it can ever be true of concertinas. But keep an open mind and an open ear to the possibility that an inexpensive new instrument can have its own kind of quality and musical usefulness. Or an inexpensive old instrument -- some of my favorite concertina music sounds best on a cheap double-reeded German 20 key. Ultimately music communicates from one heart to another, and the best instrument is the one that helps YOU do this.

 

Paul

 

PS Richard, your excellent response came while I was writing this overlong thesis. I second all you say. BTW, I do like the new accordion-reeded concertinas, on their own terms! Thanks for making them. But, judging from William's posting (and others), some seem to be getting a message that these are "just like the traditional ones but cheaper" -- not from you, I'm sure.

Edited January 15, 2004 by Paul Groff

[JimLucas]

..."real" concertina reeds.  ...why doesn't everyone use them?  Are concertina reeds that difficult to come by?

That hard to come by, and that hard to make.

 

From a business perspective, it would seem that the first guy who built a mid price concertina with concertina reeds rather than accordian reeds would take the cake.

Similarly, it would seem that the first person who started simply mass producing real concertina reeds would do quite well... until you figure out what it would cost him to do it and how many he could expect to sell.

 

Assume that there are currently 5 shops making concertinas with "real" reeds, with each making 100 new instruments per year, for a total of 500/yr. (I'm sure the reality is far fewer instruments.) Assume that by buying their reeds from an independent reed maker they could double their production, for a new total of 1000/yr. Assume that there are 5 different sizes of frame/reed in the standard instrument, and for simplicity that the number or reeds of each size is the same. Then if all the instruments were 30-button anglos, the independent reed maker could expect annual sales of 6000 each of 5 sizes of reed.

 

Even ignoring tooling-up costs -- which should be considerable -- what would the reed maker have to charge per reed to cover costs and still make a reasonable annual income? What if the demand is less? If production could be greater than about 120 reeds/day, then it might be a part-time business, and the unused time used for making other parts, such as springs and levers. (Each different part would of course involve separate tooling-up costs.)

 

But the issue is whether such reeds can be made cheaply enough to allow instruments which use them to be in the mid-price range.

 

I'ver read somewhere on this site that in a blind test (over the internet)....most people were not able to differeniate between accordian and true concertina reeds.

Years ago when I was testing transmission spectra over telephone lines. Frequencies over 2 kilohertz were considered irrelevant -- or perhaps anti-relevant -- because they did not contribute to the understanding of speech. Anything above 5 kHz was expected to have zero amplitude. So don't expect to get a realistic idea over the phone of what a musical instrument really sounds like. As for over the internet, I don't know, but Rich mentioned some factors which might reduce the distinguishing detail, so I think one should be cautious about drawing conclusions.

[Stephen Chambers]

Assume that there are currently 5 shops making concertinas with "real" reeds, with each making 100 new instruments per year, for a total of 500/yr.  (I'm sure the reality is far fewer instruments.) 

 

The reality, from my experience of a number of modern makers, would be that it takes one man about 3 weeks to build a concertina of "traditional", English-style, construction. So an individual maker might produce a mere 10 or 12 instruments per year, allowing for some repairs too.

 

Put that into your equation !

 

You also then have the problem that different makers all want to use different reeds. After all, at the end of the day, the reeds probably contribute more than anything else to the difference in sound/response of a Jeffries, a Wheatstone, or a Lachenal (etc).

[Chris Ghent]

Assume that there are currently 5 shops making concertinas with "real" reeds, with each making 100 new instruments per year, for a total of 500/yr. (I'm sure the reality is far fewer instruments.)

 

My guess is between 30 and 40... Anyone else?

 

Chris

[JimLucas]

Put that into your equation !

Well, my point was that even if I grossly overestimated demand, it still didn't look financially viable to go into the wholesale reed making business. The responses from Stephen and Chris have merely indicated how gross my overestimate was.

[Michael Reid]

Besides the sound qualities, concertina and accordion reeds have very different response qualities which can be better personally experienced rather than over the internet.

Rich, I'd be very interested to hear (well, read) how you would describe the different qualities of concertina and accordion reeds -- both their sound qualities and their response qualities.