Missing Accidentals

[m3838]

The much acclaimed Jackie/Jack concertina, that carries the promice to the hundreds, if not thousands, would be concertina players, has short cuts. It lacks duplicate accidentals, taking away players choice, and sometimes making it difficult to finger chords. Is it a blessing (in form of price and availability) or a Curse (in form of price and availability)?

[Pete Dunk]

The much acclaimed Jackie/Jack concertina, that carries the promice to the hundreds, if not thousands, would be concertina players, has short cuts. It lacks duplicate accidentals, taking away players choice, and sometimes making it difficult to finger chords. Is it a blessing (in form of price and availability) or a Curse (in form of price and availability)?

 

I reckon that any instrument that is playable enough to encourage a beginner rather than put them off because it's so hard to play should be allowed a few limitations. By the time the missing accidentals start to become an issue it's probably time to move up anyway, at which time you'll be pleasantly surprised at the money you get back on the used concertina and realise that you've had a lot of fun for very little money.

 

So I would say yes to your question. All you need to decide now is which one.

[Mikefule]

I can't speak as an English player, but...

 

I couldn't/wouldn't have made the commitment to getting a decent Anglo if I hadn't first taken the smaller risk of buying a Rochelle. The Rochelle is not the most attractive instrument to listen to or to look at, but it gave me sufficient taste for the instrument that I placed an order for a far better one a few weeks later.

 

If the cheaper English ones are good enough to do the equivalent, then surely that can only be a good thing.

 

They may well have their limitations, just as any cheap instrument does. But if they're basically the same, then a few missing notes won't make all the difference to someone's early playing career. Many Anglo players start on a 20 or 30 key instrument before progressing to a more complex one, and they have to relearn fingering. The same could be said of melodeonists making the step up from a 1 or 2 row to a 2.5 or 3 row. Or someone selling a Suzuki car and buying a Citroen. If the principle is the same then a slight change of layout in the buttons/switches shouldn't be an obstacle.

 

The question is, is the cheaper box good enough to encourage or bad enough to put someone off. If it's good enough to encourage, that's a good thing. If it's bad enough to put someone off, then that's a bad thing.

[Pete Dunk]

Odd thing that. I tried an anglo years ago and couldn't get on with it but I'm so pleased with the Jack and Jackie that I'm tempted to give the Rochelle a go one of these days. I'm also becoming interested in melodeons, this is a very worrying turn of events.

[Greg Jowaisas]

I think the only thing holding the concertina back from greater popularity is a lack of accessible, affordable, dependable instruments. The Jackie and Rochelle fill in those gaps pretty well. Are they perfect? No. But they offer a much more dependable alternative to the cheaply made, frustrating chinese boxes and they are more in line concerning cost with other entry level instruments.

 

As Tallship pointed out, by the time a beginner begins to notice missing notes or yearn for a more responsive, easier to play instrument they will be more willing to make the financial commitment necessary

for a better instrument. And yes, Wim's trade in offer is an excellent option.

 

I feel the Jackie and Rochelle are great for the concertina community and should not disappoint unless you ask what they are not designed to do.

 

Greg

[Pete Dunk]

The Rochelle is not the most attractive instrument to listen to or to look at, but it gave me sufficient taste for the instrument that I placed an order for a far better one a few weeks later.

Does this mean you have a Rochelle that needs a good home?

[Alan Day]

A person deciding to have a go at playing a concertina or any instrument for that matter is what to buy.

Do you pay out for a cheap instrument and see if you like it or spend the maximum you can afford and go in top of the range,a rare antique,an instrument that will last you a lifetime and is so complicated you may never get your head around it ? The sensible answer is to go for a playable lower range instrument and see if you like it.If you do not then you have not spent a fortune and put it down to experience.If after about a year of playing you decide the instrument is for you,or you reach that point in your playing when the instrument is restricting your progress,that is the time to then make your decision to move up to a better class instrument.At this point I would suggest that you go for the maximum you can afford.

Cheap instruments are cheap because they are mass produced,they will have a limited life span and can be very frustrating for the person beyond the beginners stage.They suit their purpose in the chain of learning and promoting the concertina. I learnt on one and in Hobgoblin only a couple of days ago had my first play on a Stagi Melodion/Concertina cross,good fun, but I didn't buy it.

Al

[m3838]

Stagi Melodion/Concertina cross,good fun, but I didn't buy it.

Al

 

Stagi Melodion/concertina what?

[Stephen Chambers]

Stagi Melodion/Concertina cross,good fun, but I didn't buy it.

Stagi Melodion/concertina what?

Bandonika?

 

Franglo??

 

Anglodeon???

 

[Daniel Hersh]

Or the actual Brunner/Stagi Organetto Abruzzese...

 

Stagi Melodion/Concertina cross,good fun, but I didn't buy it.

Stagi Melodion/concertina what?

Bandonika?

 

Franglo??

 

Anglodeon/url]???

 

[Alan Day]

This was not amongst the pictures shown.

It is a melodion in concertina format and is a Stagi

Chords on the small number of buttons on the LH and a Melodion buttons on the right in

melodion layout not concertina layout. Two rows.Even the air button is on the left.

It was not in a box or named so I cannot give you any more info.I am ten minutes away from the shop I will pop back in if you require further details.

Al

Edited May 18, 2007 by Alan Day

[JimLucas]

The much acclaimed Jackie/Jack concertina, that carries the promice to the hundreds, if not thousands, would be concertina players, has short cuts.

...

Is it a blessing (...) or a Curse (...)?

Definitely

a

blessing

!

• For those with limited funds wishing to try the (English) concertina, it's a blessing.
  
• For those wishing for more players of the (English) concertina, it's a blessing.
  
• Even for those wondering if the concertina is "right" for them, but who eventually discover that it's not, it's a blessing. Because they can make that discovery without risking a fortune, and also without risking that they're being misled by a poor quality instrument.
  

It lacks duplicate accidentals,...

Compared to a standard 48-button, it also lacks nearly an octave at the top.

Its specs are very clear. There's no surprise.

And even on the 48-button models, the majority of the accidentals are not duplicated.

 

...taking away players choice,...

Taking away nothing. Not from anyone who has never played (English) concertina before. It's just not adding quite as much as more expensive models. Its purpose is to introduce beginners to the English-system concertina, not to support the most extreme needs of an advanced player.

 

Michael, I think you're setting up a straw man. Compared to a standard 48-button, the Jackie/Jack is far less limited than a 20-button anglo compared to a 30-button, or even (IMO) a 46-button Maccann compared to a 57-button. Like the Jackie/Jack, the 20b anglo and 46b Maccann provide for the novice less expensive introductions to their respective families of concertina. And in both cases there are people who are satisfied with them and either go no further or continue to use them in some situations while using their extended-range siblings for other purposes. The same is now happening with the Jackie/Jack.

 

...and sometimes making it difficult to finger chords.

Are they "difficult" because they're actually physically awkward, or more because some of the notes aren't where you expect/wish they would be?

 

Either way, even with a 48-button English it will be possible to find chords, harmonies, or phrases which present similar difficulties. I don't think it's a bad thing that on the Jackie/Jack one may have to learn a little sooner how to deal with such situations.

[PeterT]

The much acclaimed Jackie/Jack concertina, that carries the promice to the hundreds, if not thousands, would be concertina players, has short cuts. It lacks duplicate accidentals, taking away players choice, and sometimes making it difficult to finger chords. Is it a blessing (in form of price and availability) or a Curse (in form of price and availability)?

When I "returned" to the concertina scene, last year, the thing I immediately noticed was a whole clutch of new concertina names which had not been around some ten years earlier. Some were top quality instruments made by new makers, others were mid range or budget instruments.

 

In my view, anything which makes the concertina, in its varied forms, a more accessible, and less elitist instrument, should be regarded , in principle, as a good thing. However..........

 

I remember that when I started out on Anglo, my first "proper" instrument was a 30 key Lachenal which did not play particularly well. A year later, I acquired my Wheatstone 36 key Anglo, at a cost of £375 (which I could not afford, but decided that I had to. Nowadays, that would be the equivalent of an outlay of £4000+). Since that point, only ability has held me back. Would I have bought the Wheatstone as my first instrument? Certainly not; it would have been too big a gamble.

 

Many players are quite happy to play a 30 key Anglo (or fewer keys, depending on the music which they play). If they are happy with this, and it suits their musical needs, then fine. I am used to 36 keys, and would not want the reduced flexibility which a "smaller" instrument would offer.

 

So, to the discussion on budget English instruments. If a new player buys an instrument which does not have the complete keyboard of (say) a 48 key, does it matter? Well, if they are only "dipping their toes in the water", and do not want to spend a large sum of money, probably not. However, if I was learning a new instrument, I would be far happier in the knowledge that all the notes required for any form of music were there on the keyboard. I would not wish to have to think about a compromise, in terms of fingering, in addition to learning a new instrument.

 

But then we look at the affordability of mid and top range English concertinas versus Anglo. For the same quality of instrument, they are quite "cheap". To me, it would seem a shame if fingering habits, learned on a budget instrument with only a partial keyboard, were transferred to a better quality instrument, either to be retained, or "un-learned".

 

So, whilst I can see some weight to the opposite arguement, and makers must have thought long and hard before producing the instruments which are available, I think that the lack of duplicated notes does matter, at least to anyone aspiring to play to a high standard.

 

Regards,

Peter.

[Stephen Chambers]

Stagi Melodion/Concertina cross,good fun, but I didn't buy it.

Stagi Melodion/concertina what?

Bandonika?

 

Franglo??

 

Anglodeon???

 

Or the actual Brunner/Stagi Organetto Abruzzese...

Daniel,

 

I listed the different Melodion/Concertina crosses that I could think of, for the benefit of those not familiar with such things, but I didn't mention their Organetto Abruzzese because 1) I'd forgotten that they make it (never seen one) and 2) I'ts only a variant of the Bandonika.

 

But it does sound a likely candidate.

[Alan Day]

Just popped in to Hobgoblin for another look at this instrument and I can see why I have caused a bit of confusion.It is a one off prototype A Stagi Gremlin (Hobgoblin's trade name).I thought that this had been described before, but obviously not.

The Left Hand Consists of an Air Button and 4 Chord Buttons from left to right

F push and pull, C Push G Pull, F Push and pull (different notes for these chords may consist of a fifth in there)

C push G pull (chords as the last F chords)

Right Hand 4 buttons on top row that are accidentals enabling scale playing on push and pull

8 buttons on bottom row as Melodion set up. Physical size is similar to a GD Hohner.

It is for sale, but this would have to be negotiated with Hobgoblin, which in passing has now moved to Franchise ownership.

Al

[JimLucas]

I remember that when I started out on Anglo, my first "proper" instrument was a 30 key Lachenal which did not play particularly well. A year later, I acquired my Wheatstone 36 key Anglo,....

 

So, to the discussion on budget English instruments. If a new player buys an instrument which does not have the complete keyboard of (say) a 48 key, does it matter? Well, if they are only "dipping their toes in the water", and do not want to spend a large sum of money, probably not. However, if I was learning a new instrument, I would be far happier in the knowledge that all the notes required for any form of music were there on the keyboard. I would not wish to have to think about a compromise, in terms of fingering, in addition to learning a new instrument.

I don't think anyone's suggesting that you abandon your 36-button Wheatstone and start playing a Rochelle in its stead. But if the Rochelle had been available at a proportional price (£20-30?) when you got your Lachenal, don't you think you might have bought the Rochelle, instead? And do you think that would have been a mistake?

 

To someone already highly accomplished on another instrument, I can see that "missing" buttons (on either anglo or English) might be an issue. But even then, unless and until they have learned enough to understand both what's "missing" and what could be done with it, how can they possibly think about it, much less be distracted by having to do so? Did you experience difficulty with your 30-button anglo when or because you learned that a 36-button offered more options? If so, don't you even now "have to think about a compromise, in terms of fingering," because you don't have a 38-, 40-, 45-, or 50-button anglo? Somehow, I doubt it.

 

The Jackie and Jack are intended as introductory instruments, providing all the necessary basics for learning to play, even though not all the features necessary for some "advanced" arrangements. Besides, one can find challenges at any and every level of expertise.

 

So, whilst I can see some weight to the opposite arguement, and makers must have thought long and hard before producing the instruments which are available, I think that the lack of duplicated notes does matter, at least to anyone aspiring to play to a high standard.

Gee, I wonder how many people expect to "play to a high standard" even on a top of the line Wheatstone the first day -- or month, or even year -- after they first try it. Anybody who finds themselves heading in that direction and "missing" those duplicates will have to find a way to get a better instrument. (If they can't, then bypassing the Jackie/Jack won't have helped.)

[chris]

You mean that buying a brand new grand piano is not going to mean fame and fortune as a concert pianist on the concert platform by the weekend Damn

chris (in the height of optimism)

[JimLucas]

You mean that buying a brand new grand piano is not going to mean fame and fortune as a concert pianist on the concert platform by the weekend Damn chris (in the height of optimism)

Not unless some canny agent has prearranged the publicity and the bookings for whoever it is that was going to buy the piano.

 

Well, maybe if you managed to get arrested for drunk driving just before your first attempt to play the thing.

 

But whatever you do, don't waste your time practicing on a spinet before you get the big one.