Herbert Greene's 'concordeon' Re-discovered

[Stephen Chambers]

I know that if I ever found a Hayden Duet version of what you have, I would spend plenty of time and $$$ to get it restored and playable!

Hmmm, sounds like you should be looking out for a large Wicki system Bandoneon?

[ragtimer]

I know that if I ever found a Hayden Duet version of what you have, I would spend plenty of time and $$$ to get it restored and playable!

Hmmm, sounds like you should be looking out for a large Wicki system Bandoneon?

Well, I know about the WIcki System, the exact precursor of the Hayden, circa 1890.

ANd I've even seen a photo (on C.Net?) of a French electronic organ using what looks to be a Wicki keyboard -- one for bass, another for treble (like two "manuals" on a conventional organ).

 

However, I had the impression that few if any instruments were ever produced using the WIcki system. If bandoneons were indeed made that way, and any have survived, and have made it to teh USA (unlikely), yes, I would like one -- but the restoration would probably be a killer (but worth it, as I'd said ... ).

[inventor]

I have a 2 voice (octaves) 68 button Hayden System square concertina which is surplus to my present needs, and can bring it along to Sidmouth Festival at beginning of August if you are interested. Sidmouth Festival is well worth going to anyway, with lots of concertina action; I have been going there for the last 52 years.

Inventor.

[Dirge]

Talk about having your bluff called!

[m3838]

Talk about having your bluff called!

 

If you will not go for it, I'm next in line.

I was eyeing bandoneons for awile.

[Boney]

I have a 2 voice (octaves) 68 button Hayden System square concertina which is surplus to my present needs, and can bring it along to Sidmouth Festival at beginning of August if you are interested.

Talk about having your bluff called!

If you will not go for it, I'm next in line.

Boy, I'd be curious to see/hear/play that one too! What are you looking to get for it? What size is it? Do you have any pictures?

[ragtimer]

I have a 2 voice (octaves) 68 button Hayden System square concertina which is surplus to my present needs, and can bring it along to Sidmouth Festival at beginning of August if you are interested. Sidmouth Festival is well worth going to anyway, with lots of concertina action; I have been going there for the last 52 years.

Inventor.

Wow. I take it Sidmouth is in England, so I won't be able to touch and feel it first.

And while I'd prefer a "wet" unison tuning to octaves, what the hey.

Can you give a few more details, like how many buttons on each side, and the note ranges?

Does it go below Middle C on RH and more than an octave below Middle C on the LH? How far up on the LH?

 

Photos would be very much appreciated. About when and where was it made? Playing condition?

 

And of course, what your'e asking for it (can email me privately if you like)?

And I'm afraid to ask, shipping costs from the UK to Maine, USA.

 

Edited to ask: What is its size and weight? I hope smaller than the monster that started thsi thread -- tho I would like a few minutes of squeezing time on that, just for the experience!

--Mike K.

Edited June 28, 2007 by ragtimer

[inventor]

It is 8" square (or precisely 8.25 x 7.75), 67 buttons - full button layout on JAX site and also on the Hayden section of maccan site. There are photographs somewhere on the Web but I cannot find them at the moment. Made by Bastari about 15 to 20 years ago but never used; left over from a batch of 10 when I stopped actively trading in concertinas.

Please note that Harry Gecuuns (via Concertina Connection) is proposing to make a batch of 10 much better quality Square multivoiced Bandoneon type instruments in the Hayden or Wiki system but is waiting to get 10 orders before he starts. These will have a very good compass of notes on both sides, but I dare say they will cost a lot more than the £650 I shall be asking for the Bastari.

Inventor.

[ragtimer]

It is 8" square (or precisely 8.25 x 7.75), 67 buttons - full button layout on JAX site and also on the Hayden section of maccan site. There are photographs somewhere on the Web but I cannot find them at the moment. Made by Bastari about 15 to 20 years ago but never used; left over from a batch of 10 when I stopped actively trading in concertinas.

Please note that Harry Geuuns (via Concertina Connection) is proposing to make a batch of 10 much better quality Square multivoiced Bandoneon type instruments in the Hayden or Wiki system but is waiting to get 10 orders before he starts. These will have a very good compass of notes on both sides, but I dare say they will cost a lot more than the £650 I shall be asking for the Bastari.

Inventor.

Thanks for the info. It's not much bigger than my current Stagi 46-key Hayden.

I've read about and seen pictures of the original Bastari 67-key hexagonal Hayden, but didn't know they had made any square ones, especially with octave (Bandoneon) voicing.

 

How is the button action? Is it like the early Stagi buttons, which used a sheath of flexible rubber as guides, or is it better than that? Are the buttons round as usual, or squre like some Bandoneons have? I'd appreciate it if you could scarf up a link to some photos.

 

Is the case the usual Italian natural wood with inlays, or something else (Now I'm being picky

 

I wish the RH had been extended down to fiddle G, and the LH allowed for an F# Major chord, but the 67 keys do fix a lot of problems with te 46 key layout.

 

Your asking price is within my range, if we can figure out payment and shipping, we could talk via email.

--Mike K.

[Richard Morse]

How is the button action? Is it like the early Stagi buttons, which used a sheath of flexible rubber as guides, or is it better than that?

The Button Box used to sell them. I don't remember what the action consisted of but my memory of it is that is was intact (no goosey buttons sliding around). They're typical Stagi buttons, round, white "naturals" and black "accidentals", slightly domed. The case was as their "natural" wood models - a mahogany veneer plywood with decorative herringbone banding at the edges similar to their W15-LN model.

 

I also remember that they were not much fun to play. Pretty large, heavy.... took a lot of pumping effort for not much volume. Not problematic when playing for one's self when seated, but very tiring to get volume out of it when playing with others.

 

There is also an inherent design problem with the action... the lever arms are very long and the reeds packed closely which means that it doesn't take much wiggle/wobble for one pallet to get hung up on an adjacent one causing the reed to keep sounding AND to keep the adjacent reed from responding. We fixed the worst offenders before we sold the boxes - with a modest amount of effort the action can be improved quite a bit. I don't know if this has been done with Brian's box though I would imagine he would have had some action work done on it if he played it much. Even if it is "original", a handy person would be able to make it better.

 

-- Rich --

[ragtimer]

How is the button action? Is it like the early Stagi buttons, which used a sheath of flexible rubber as guides, or is it better than that?

The Button Box used to sell them. I don't remember what the action consisted of but my memory of it is that is was intact (no goosey buttons sliding around). They're typical Stagi buttons, round, white "naturals" and black "accidentals", slightly domed. The case was as their "natural" wood models - a mahogany veneer plywood with decorative herringbone banding at the edges similar to their W15-LN model.

Thanks, RIch, that's good to know. I do like the large buttons on my Stagi Hayden.

Didn't know that black accidentals were used anywhre but on some ETs.

I also remember that they were not much fun to play. Pretty large, heavy.... took a lot of pumping effort for not much volume. Not problematic when playing for one's self when seated, but very tiring to get volume out of it when playing with others.

Now THAT's a revelation! WIth the Bandoneon-style octave reeds, I was expecting to blow the rest of our Celtic band away Seriously, I was hoping for more volume and clarity, not less.

Are we in fact talking about the square bandoneon version, not the hex or octagonal model?

 

If you (Button Box) were selling them, maybe there's one for sale on this side of the Atlantic.

Or maybe IO should keep saving up for Rich's Hayden ... ?

There is also an inherent design problem with the action... the lever arms are very long and the reeds packed closely which means that it doesn't take much wiggle/wobble for one pallet to get hung up on an adjacent one causing the reed to keep sounding AND to keep the adjacent reed from responding. We fixed the worst offenders before we sold the boxes - with a modest amount of effort the action can be improved quite a bit. I don't know if this has been done with Brian's box though I would imagine he would have had some action work done on it if he played it much. Even if it is "original", a handy person would be able to make it better.

-- Rich --

Yes, I fixed an antique music box reed-organ section with pallet overlap problems -- just needed an Xacto knife to trim a bit off the sides of adjacent pallets. If that will work, then OK.

 

It sounds like an OK buy, but I'm worried about the poor sound return for squeezing effort.

Oh to be there and try it in the flesh! --Mike K.

[inventor]

Rich Moorse has given a very good independant accessment of what the instrument is like.

1) Ends Mahogany veneered laminate as described.

2) Yes they are quiet but at one Festival I attended Mr Microvox hooked up my personal instrument to his system and it sounded really great, I would definitely have invested in this if I had at that time been playing in a band. Several singers bought them as they didn't overpower their voice unlike Jeffries and Metal ended Wheatstones.

3) Buttons properly individually bushed in as on a normal concertina.

4) I only play my instrument occasionally and have never had any problems with the action.

5) I have looked at the instrument(s) for sale and see that some of the tuning also might need a little touching up and the action is a little tight. So it might be a good idea to play on it for a while then take it into Button Box for a going over.

6) Weight: ok it is not as light as a 6" concertina, but not much heavier than an 8 - 8.75" aeola. Because the handles are central I found it easier to play standing up than an 8.25" instrument I often play. and unlike that one it sits firmly on the Knees rather than rolling around.

Inventor.

[ragtimer]

Rich Morse has given a very good independant accessment of what the instrument is like.

1) Ends Mahogany veneered laminate as described.

OK, it looks like a Stagi. Most folks who see my Stagi 46 comment on how beautfiul it is, so I don't mind at all.

2) Yes they are quiet but at one Festival I attended Mr Microvox hooked up my personal instrument to his system and it sounded really great, I would definitely have invested in this if I had at that time been playing in a band. Several singers bought them as they didn't overpower their voice unlike Jeffries and Metal ended Wheatstones.

For my own home use, I don't mind the lesser volume, and I'm sure my wife agrees. And the small band I play with usually lays back when I have a solo -- and when I'm just adding to the chords or the melody mix, it doesn't matter so much if I am heard or not. If it does, I can just use my 46 -- it plays in all the "trad" keys. ANd I cold always plan a couple of Microvox mikes (is that what they are) inside.

3) Buttons properly individually bushed in as on a normal concertina.

That's good to hear. And I hope the action is not subject to wear after long use; the Stagi 46's buttons do tend to sit lower into the ends as the button extensions wear little grooves in the leever ends.

4) I only play my instrument occasionally and have never had any problems with the action.

Also good to know. I can fix the problem Rich warned about, if it crops up.

5) I have looked at the instrument(s) for sale and see that some of the tuning also might need a little touching up and the action is a little tight. So it might be a good idea to play on it for a while then take it into Button Box for a going over.

That's reasonable for a 20-year-old box. Some days my 46 seems to need some tuning touch-up, but today it sounds just fine -- humid weather, or maybe I'm ddeveloping a tin ear

6) Weight: ok it is not as light as a 6" concertina, but not much heavier than an 8 - 8.75" aeola. Because the handles are central I found it easier to play standing up than an 8.25" instrument I often play. and unlike that one it sits firmly on the Knees rather than rolling around.

Inventor.

That's a good point -- about raw weight being not as important as balance. I can't play my 46 standing up, as it wants to roll forward. So a box that sits well on my knees (or *could* be played standing) is a real plus.

Thanks for the info -- Mike K.

Edited July 18, 2007 by ragtimer