Fred Kilroy

[Chris Timson]

I've just acquired (from the inestimable Chris Algar) a 45-button Jeffries G/D anglo that, according to Chris, once belonged to the Lancashire player Fred Kilroy. All I know about Fred Kilroy is the following:-

 

- he came from Lancashire

- he played at one time for Manley Morris

- a short recording I heard in a talk by Roger Digby revealed a player with at least 45 fingers who made the anglo sound like a very well-played duet.

 

I'd dearly like to know more for obvious reasons. Clearly Roger would be a good starting place, but can anyone else point me in the direction of any materials that may be extant about him? In particular I would like to know of any recordings that might be available.

 

TIA

 

Chris

 

PS it's a gorgeous instrument. I'm trading my 38-button Jeffries for it, and feel pretty chuffed about it all round.

[Mark Davies]

I was one of the regular concertina players for the Manley Morris Dancers between 1974 and 1994 and occasionally play for them when required(ie:I will be going to a practice this Monday evening)Many of the older dancers and the original concertina player Caleb Walker(who taught me the core body of Manley Tunes)told some amusing stories about Fred Kilroy.George Shannon and Ellis Marshall(both concertina players from the Oldham area) whom I knew also also told some tales about Fred.He in fact played for the Manley dancers very rarely and played in a style which was not like majority of the Manley concertina players.At full strength during our heyday we could muster seven concertina players, a side and bass drummer.The team won the International Trophy at the Llangollen Eistedfodd on two occasions,lastly in 1984,although I do not think Fred Kilroy every played at this event.We are all getting a bit long in the tooth and the team rarely gets out to dance.Barry Callaghan(a concertina and melodeon player from Sheffield)and John Adams are in the process of doing a video on the Manley Dancers and their tradition.

 

The best source of written information about Fred Kilroy is in Alan Ward's article in an early Musical Traditions magazine.You may be able to access this on line via the website.If not come back to me.

 

I was hoping that Alan Ward would attend last years ECMW(which you attended)to give a talk on Fred Kilroy but he was not able to make it.

 

I may be able to find some photographs of Fred Kilroy in the Manley Dancers archives.I will make some enquiries on Monday.

[Stephen Chambers]

Alan Ward's article on Fred Kilroy appeared in two parts, the first was in Traditional Music No. 1, mid 1975, pp.15-18 (and photo back cover), the second was in Traditional Music No. 3, early 1976, pp.5-10 (and photo front cover).

 

It does not seem to have been made available on the internet (yet ?).

 

He was an amazing player.

[Chris Timson]

Alan Ward's article on Fred Kilroy appeared in two parts, the first was in Traditional Music No. 1, mid 1975, pp.15-18 (and photo back cover), the second was in Traditional Music No. 3, early 1976, pp.5-10 (and photo front cover).

The EFDSS library have the articles and are sending copies to me (in a plain brown envelope, I hope) for a moderate fee.

 

Chris

[Roger Digby]

A very knowledgable person on the subject of Fred Kilroy is Dave Prebble who was certainly looking at 'producing' something, though whether it was an article or recording I don't know. Dave is an irrepressable enthusiast and I am sure will be happy to get involved in discussion. Fred was an astonishing player whom most listeners would certainly assume was playing a duet system; such was his expertise across the rows and the key signatures. I have a cassette of him playing very casually - lots of false starts and unfinished pieces and, of course, lots of coughing from the emphysemia that eventually carried him off. A party piece was 'Lady of Spain' modulating through as many keys as he could! He was a reader, having early experience as a bandsman (was it on trumpet?) He certainly did not think in terms of 'home keys' and I think you can hear the influence of 'band parts'. As far as I know there are no commercial recordings available at all.

I have the Alan Ward articles and would be happy to copy them. I think all the early Traditional Music magazines that Alan Ward produced were eventually made available on CD Rom when Rod Stradling got involved and introduced electronic technology.

I don't know how many Anglos Fred had. I have it heard it said that he had six. If so, I have three of them and Chris Timson's makes four. Two to go?

[Stephen Chambers]

I don't know how many Anglos Fred had. I have it heard it said that he had six. If so, I have three of them and Chris Timson's makes four. Two to go?

 

I can tell you that Fred had a lot more !

 

The late Paul Davies was friendly with Fred, and very enthusiastic about his music, he even learnt to play in that more duet-like style, or "fairground-organ music" as Paul sometimes called it. He too made some tapes of Fred, I must find out what happened to them...

 

Anyway, Paul told me that Fred acquired lots of Jeffries over the years, when they were not so sought after, and that he kept pairs of them, in various tunings/pitches, "for when my mate comes round" so that they could play together once more, like the old days. (This was an old friend he had loved to play with, but who never could "come round" again)

 

Paul, and others, bought an occasional one of these instruments off Fred over the years. Then, at the end of Fred's life, Paul was offered the bulk of them (the family still kept some), and asked me to meet him at Euston Station with my car, because he couldn't carry them all. I forget exactly how many there were, but I can tell you that they filled two mailbags ! (Perhaps a dozen, or so, Jeffries and one Wheatstone ? Fred thought little of the Wheatstone, which was relegated to his spare room, and neither did Paul, who made me a present of it !)

 

So from all this I would reckon that Fred must have had about 20 Jeffries anglos, most of which were in pairs regarding key & pitch, and an "inconsequential" Wheatstone.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Stephen Chambers

[Chris Timson]

(For the avoidance of confusion, Roger, I sent you an email before I saw the above).

 

I had already gathered from Chris Algar that Fred had had a lot of concertinas - he talked of batches like Steve describes. He did say that mine was one of his favourites - on what basis I don't know as it was only in passing, I must follow it up - and it certainly is a lovely concertina to play.

 

I have "ordered" copies of the Traditional Music articles from EFDSS, but what I really want to do is hear some of his music. Perhaps those of us with an interest can organise something amongst ourselves. I've had some experience in transferrring analogue recordings to CD, and I guess I'm not alone in this.

 

Chris

[Mark Davies]

My fellow concertina player with the Manley Morris Dancers Colin Haworth is running me off a copy of a tape he has of Fred playing and we going to search the MMD's archives to see if we have any additional recordings,photographs etc although we think anything we have has been used in Alan Ward's two articles.Speaking to Colin last night he told me that on a visit to another Oldham area concertina player Ellis Marshall he was told that Fred Kilroy lived nearby and he had planned to visit him but by the time he got round to doing this Fred had died.Fred was a very occasional concertina player with the MMD and only turned out when the regular player Caleb Walker(who we also have recordings of)was not available.Other older Oldham area anglo players I have had contact with did not play in same style as Fred ie;Ellis Marshall & George Shannon.

[Paul Groff]

Mark,

 

If there is a way for the tapes to be collected and made available for sale (with proper permission from the late Mr. Kilroy's family, those who made the recordings, etc.), I bet there would be enough demand to cover the costs, and this would be a great service to those who were never able to hear this legendary musician.

 

If not, please add my name to the list of those who would appreciate copies of what can be released. I would be happy to reimburse costs for postage, tape, etc.

 

Thank you!

 

Paul

[Dave Prebble]

Hello to all,

 

I too have one of Fred’s old boxes a 38k G/D Jeffries, which was one of the instruments initially retained by the family when Fred died.

 

Thanks to the help, information and pointers given to me by Roger Digby, Mark Davies and others in response to a request thread of mine a year ago, I managed to locate a number of recordings held by the National Sound Archives, a record company and also some in private hands.

Although the bulk of these recordings might be considered to be 'safe for posterity', they are not readily accessible to today’s players. This is a great shame and, if it is within my power, one I hope to be able to rectify.

After making a good start on my search, this, along with other projects, had to be shelved due to family and health problems and, only now am I in a position to start picking up the pieces and continue on the quest.

 

Having heard a tape of Fred’s playing I can certainly go along with Chris’s contention that the fellow must have had 45 fingers…and, I would suggest, double jointed at that! As others have noted, he certainly makes the instrument sound like a Duet and in all sorts of ‘non-home’ keys.

 

At one point at the 2003 English Country Music Weekend there were no less than four of Fred’s boxes present at one session including one that rather surprised me…from memory ..a 64 key Aeola McCann Duet !

I have no idea if Fred played duet or if this was simply an instrument he had ‘collected’

(I should be most pleased to hear from the Lady who was playing it or anyone who knows who she is)

 

In trying to get together a representative collection of Fred’s recordings, I would anticipate that the biggest problem will be researching copyright ownership and negotiating permission for some kind of limited release.

Understandably, at this early stage, I wouldn’t like to comment further regarding in what form such material might eventually be made available.

 

Having spoken to Chris, I am sure we can combine forces and hopefully get a good result.

 

Meantime, either Chris or myself would be delighted to hear from anyone who could point us in the direction of any other sources of information, anecdotes, photos or perhaps even recordings of Fred.

 

Regards

 

Dave

 

PS Could any one email me (not post here) with email addresses for Harry Scurfield and Nick & Mary Barber? Thanks

Edited January 13, 2004 by Dave Prebble

[Roger Digby]

Great news Dave. Glad to hear you are back on the case; you are certainly the man for the job. Best of luck.

I have never heard of Fred playing a duet, but can certainly understand why he might have had one to try. It would have been the obvious system for him if he had come to it first.

Keep in touch

Roger

[Chris Timson]

I've started a new thread here on the topic of the layout of the notes on my Kilroy concertina.

 

Chris

[TonyM]

My fellow concertina player with the Manley Morris Dancers Colin Haworth is running me off a copy of a tape he has of Fred playing and we going to search the MMD's archives to see if we have any additional recordings,photographs etc although we think anything we have has been used in Alan Ward's two articles.Speaking to Colin last night he told me that on a visit to another Oldham area concertina player Ellis Marshall he was told that Fred Kilroy lived nearby and he had planned to visit him but by the time he got round to doing this Fred had died.Fred was a very occasional concertina player with the MMD and only turned out when the regular player Caleb Walker(who we also have recordings of)was not available.Other older Oldham area anglo players I have had contact with did not play in same style as Fred ie;Ellis Marshall & George Shannon.

 

 

Hi Mark,

 

I noticed you mentioned Ellis Marshall a number of times in your posts here...Thank You!

 

I'm Ellis' Grandson, and even now I can remember him mentioning Fred Kilroy in a number of conversations when I lived with him in Royton when I was a boy.

 

The other names that immediately spring to mind are Jimmy Jinx, the McDermott Brothers, and Jimmy Coleman.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Tony Marshall.

 

www.tonymarshall.info

[TomB-R]

Although I'm sure regulars here know about it, it seems a shame not to mention, just for completeness, the three Fred Kilroy tracks on cd three of the wonderful "Anglo International" compilation.

 

http://www.angloconcertina.co.uk