Schubert Lieder

[stuart estell]

Stuart, I can't imagine doing this. My hat's off to you.

 

Best put the hat back on for now Mark; I spent some more time on it last night and it's proving a bit of a struggle!

 

I have ordered that box set of the Complete Lieder though. I listened to my Fischer-Dieskau/Barenboim recording of Winterreise last night and when I got to the end just wanted MORE.

[Mark Evans]

Best put the hat back on for now Mark; I spent some more time on it last night and it's proving a bit of a struggle!

 

I have ordered that box set of the Complete Lieder though. I listened to my Fischer-Dieskau/Barenboim recording of Winterreise last night and when I got to the end just wanted MORE.

 

That you attempt this is enough. The hat's still off me hoary ole' noggin' .

 

I think you will really enjoy the Dieskau/Moore take on Winterreise (on everything actually). There was a comfortable magic between those two. Dieskau/Barenboim produces a few more fireworks for sure.

 

Schubert has been on my mind lately and it's all your fault. I screwed up my courage (due in part to single malt scotch) and pulled out a cassette recording of Megan Henderson and me in a live performce of Winterreise at the Thayer Conservatory in 1991 with a 1827 Graf fortepiano copy. It was a very moving experience and a phrase being bantered about in the states at present, a "teaching moment".

 

Time does not heal all. God in heaven the mistakes . A noble attempt, but no more. Presently I'm grateful there are no other recordings of my public attempts of that work floating around out there .

[Ivan Viehoff]

I've also had a go at trying to doing extracts from Winterreise with the box. I came to three conclusions:

 

1) the piano accompaniments are two thick for the box, need to thin them out (Reminds me of the story about the film director who wanted the trout quintet arranged for full orchestra, resulting in resignation of musical director)

2) will be difficult to put them in keys which are both straightforward on the box and singable

3) my 46-key is too small

 

Fortunately I've recently expanded to 57-key, so perhaps I should have another go, when I get my books back from storage in the autumn (major house works).

 

I think simply working out the chords is too simple an approach. There are counter melodies and particular accompaniment figures that are crucial to these pieces (can you imagine Die Forelle without that tripping figure?) I don't know why you want to sing them in English, barbarism.

 

Der Leiermann is the most obvious one to try, I've said it before. Folky with a simple accompaniment. Also it is located so that one has a choice of friendly keys - I guess you have the baritone edition where it is in G minor, but the tenor edition has it in A minor which is also doable by a baritone.

 

I never even considered trying Gute Nacht, because although it is a song I sing very often, the piano accompaniment is so thickly chordal it would require an entirely different approach with the box that is beyond my imagination. Also the three flats are off-putting (as noted), and taking it down a semitone to 2 sharps would mean the major section is in 5 sharps.

 

One that I think would be worth a go is Einsamkeit, because it has such a sparse accompaniment, with occasional thick tremolando chords that might be better on a box than a piano. B minor in the baritone. Could move it to A minor. Not a folky one though.

 

Die Krahe is a very folky song with a simple accompaniment. I think it is B minor again in the baritone edition. The top F# is about as friendly a top F# as can be imagined, otherwise it could be done in A minor.

 

I'd better stop.

[stuart estell]

I think simply working out the chords is too simple an approach. There are counter melodies and particular accompaniment figures that are crucial to these pieces (can you imagine Die Forelle without that tripping figure?) I don't know why you want to sing them in English, barbarism.

 

Basically because I don't speak German and have no desire to sing in a language that I don't speak; that's just my personal preference. I don't sing traditional songs in the dialect they're "written" in either - I translate them as well to make them sound natural in my own voice.

 

I'm well aware that non-traditional approaches always have the potential to intensely annoy anyone with a more purist attitude to classical music; but then I'm no classical singer and am always happy to fly in the face of convention, otherwise I wouldn't play songs by the Jesus & Mary Chain on concertina either.

 

Regarding "simply working out the chords" - I think you misread me Ivan: I've no intention of just _playing_ chords; however, I need to go through a process of internalising the harmonic shape of the thing before I arrange it or try and memorise it. I always did that when I played the piano more seriously than I do now. Perhaps expressing it in terms of "mental translation into chord symbols" gave the wrong impression. But anyway: agreed - there's far too much going on to strip it all out, and the last thing I want to do is rob the song of any of its personality.

[Mark Evans]

I don't know why you want to sing them in English, barbarism.

 

 

Stuarts reasoning seems sound to me and I applaude his efforts and fully expect that he will come up with something unique and musically sophisticated.

[stuart estell]

The Fischer-Dieskau Book of Lieder has arrived! What a great resource - thanks so much for recommending it Mark.

 

The first thing I did, of course, was to turn to the translation of Gute Nacht, and I'm genuinely shocked by how poor and anodyne the English translation in the Schirmer edition is in comparison with the rendition of it in this book. You were absolutely right!

 

Now that I understand what the song _actually_ means, rather than what the Schirmer translator tried to turn it into, I see now why you find it such a troubling song. What a powerful piece.

 

Thanks again!

[Mark Evans]

Now that I understand what the song _actually_ means, rather than what the Schirmer translator tried to turn it into, I see now why you find it such a troubling song. What a powerful piece.

 

 

Schirmer translations are...interesting .

 

I'm sure further developments are to come .