Is More Better?

[doodle]

Recent e-Bay sales have made me wonder whether there is any advantage in moving from my 39 key Jefferies anglo to a few more buttons. Also, mine has 2 of its buttons occupied by cry-baby/squeeker sounds, so is really a 37 C/G. Can anyone help with opinions - I prefer the 39 over a 30 key I tried originally, so would a 45 or 50 be that much better, too? I play for dance/song and play in an "English" style - chords to the left and melody to the right, mainly. The cd, Anglo International, seems to be split between 30/39/45+ players / instruments, so no pointers there and a lot of the concertina heroes seem to be very happy with 30 or 39 buttons - help, help! Also, is Bb/F a "good thing" as far as tone and playability goes - thinking of a Jefferies/Wheatstone/Crabb instrument?

Thanks for any random thoughts you can post and I hope any debate may illuminate the darker recesses of the use of the "less shiny buttons"!!! Cheers everyone Doodle

[PeterT]

Recent e-Bay sales have made me wonder whether there is any advantage in moving from my 39 key Jefferies anglo to a few more buttons.

I don't see any advantage, moving to a (heavier) box with more than 39 keys. You would be better off considering a medium Duet system, which would give you more flexibility.

 

In terms of keys other than C/G, my answer would be "maybe" depending on how you want to use the instrument. Other tunings would certainly give you a lower range, which might be more useful for song accompaniment.

 

Regards,

Peter.

[Frank Edgley]

Just an observation. I understand that Irish anglo players prefer 30 buttons to more, and even though they may have a 38 button Jeffries rarely use the extras. This, I know, is a generalisation. A few extra buttons are handy at times, but working around limitations can often develop the musical style into something quite interesting.

[Jody Kruskal]

Hi Doodle,

 

50 buttons seems excessive. Remember, the instrument gets less responsive as the bellows volume increases and harder to control as the weight increases, both likely when there are so many buttons.

 

Single line (Irish style) playing on the Anglo really does not require more than the standard 30 buttons. (right Frank?). Almost all of the notes are there somewhere in some direction.

 

Harmonic (English style) playing has different needs. I think the ideal Anglo system would give you all of these features:

 

• Draw button on the right hand for every note in the melody range.

• Push button on the right hand for every note in the melody range.

 

• Accessible fingering patterns for playing melody with alternating push and draw.

• Accessible fingering patterns for playing melody all on the push or all on the draw.

 

• Both push and pull fingering patterns for playing all chords as fifths (minimum spelling 1, 5).

• Both push and pull fingering patterns for playing all common chords more fully (minimum spelling 1, 5, 7, 1, 3, 5).

 

Jefferies made a bunch of 38 button Anglos with basically the same fingering arrangement that come very close to achieving these attributes. My 38 fingering chart is posted here somewhere, but I can’t seem to find it. Does anyone here know how to do fancy searches?

 

Anyway... if you can play any chord or any melody note in either direction (or close to that ideal with the 38 button) then what you have is an Anglo that can play like a duet. Isn’t that cool? You can switch back and forth in your approach as often as you like between long bellows and short bellows playing. This gives the player lots of choice about how to articulate the music. More choice = more musical richness.

 

The characteristic Anglo sound has a bounciness that’s hard to achieve on an English or Duet. If you like that dancing, articulated sound, but want the ability to play longer, smoother lines, then the 38 gives you that capacity. Also it gives you enough left hand chord notes to play a full accompaniment... like a duet.

 

To make full use of this requires the right hand to be able to play most of the melody notes alone. The G/D Anglo puts the range in the right place for fiddle based traditions, at least most of the time.

 

The 38 button is not the only way to go. 20 button instruments can make fine music too and as Frank pointed out, overcoming limitations can result in interesting solutions.

 

Sorry doodle, I got side tracked by this “Anglo that can play like a duet” idea. My 38 G/D is missing a few notes I would like. Namely the high A# (or Bb if you prefer) and the low low low A. Including those gives you a 40 button instrument. That would be enough for me.

[Trotsky]

Why not just change some of the reeds you don't use to ones you will use? surely this is feasible on a 38 button - I would not know only play 20 buttons.

Edited March 18, 2007 by Trotsky

[Jody Kruskal]

Why not just change some of the reeds you don't use to ones you will use? surely this is feasible on a 38 button - I would not know only play 20 buttons.

 

Trotsky, that would work except I use 'em all. At least sometimes. Of those added notes the A# would get used only rarely. The A however would get used all the time.

[Chris Timson]

Jefferies made a bunch of 38 button Anglos with basically the same fingering arrangement that come very close to achieving these attributes. My 38 fingering chart is posted here somewhere, but I can’t seem to find it. Does anyone here know how to do fancy searches?

You'll find it in the Concertina FAQ here.

 

Chris

[doodle]

Thanks everyone, words of wisdom and experience, indeed. Seems like I should keep my money in the bank and keep up the practice on my 39/37 button instrument. I must not be tempted to substitute money for honest practice! A recent visit to my local club from Brian Peters certainly re-whetted my appetite - great set and also a nice counterpoint to John Kirkpatrick, who visited the previous week - giants indeed and riches for us amateurs to enjoy!

[m3838]

50 buttons seems excessive. Remember, the instrument gets less responsive as the bellows volume increases and harder to control as the weight increases, both likely when there are so many buttons.

 

The need for push/pull stems from saving space and giving more range to fewer fingers.

As instrument grows, it's becoming more difficult to push/pull, and the space is getting packed with duplicates in both directions. Which brings us to 3 row accordion dilemma: do we need push/pull, or uni-sonoric. With all the notes available on the pull, most players of these systems tend to play in that direction, as the pull gives most dynamics. So has it ever been attempted to make multy-button, muly-row Anglo type concertina uni-sonoric? Basically you will preserve all the layout for the pull, making it a duet. I bet it will take some shifting of the rows to untangle the fingers, but I don't see how it's impossible? Esp, with the help of the LH G row.

[Jody Kruskal]

Jefferies made a bunch of 38 button Anglos with basically the same fingering arrangement that come very close to achieving these attributes. My 38 fingering chart is posted here somewhere, but I can’t seem to find it. Does anyone here know how to do fancy searches?

You'll find it in the Concertina FAQ here.

 

Chris

 

There it is. Thank you Chris.

[bill_mchale]

Just an observation. I understand that Irish anglo players prefer 30 buttons to more, and even though they may have a 38 button Jeffries rarely use the extras. This, I know, is a generalisation. A few extra buttons are handy at times, but working around limitations can often develop the musical style into something quite interesting.

 

I agree.. I seriously thought about ordering a 39 button when I ordered my Suttner, but for a variety of reasons, I decided that there would be little advantage gained for the extra price... in part because by the time I get the little beast, I will have been playing the 30 button for 6-7 years. More importantly, when I look at the various players out there who use concertinas with more than 30 buttons, I see very few that actually take advantage of them. Chris Droney plays a 40 button Wheatstone, but from what I saw in the Catskills last year, he spends most of his playing on the G row only venturing off when he needs a note not present. I would be suprised if he ever used the extra buttons. A friend of mine emails Tim Collins and asked him about his 39 button.. and I believe Tim's response was that he only made limited use of the extra buttons and would be quite happy with a 30 button. As far as I can tell, the only major Irish Anglo player who uses the extra buttons is Mícheál Ó Raghallaigh. Though, I could be mistaken on that point .

 

--

Bill

[Paul Read]

More importantly, when I look at the various players out there who use concertinas with more than 30 buttons, I see very few that actually take advantage of them. Chris Droney plays a 40 button Wheatstone, but from what I saw in the Catskills last year, he spends most of his playing on the G row only venturing off when he needs a note not present. I would be suprised if he ever used the extra buttons. A friend of mine emails Tim Collins and asked him about his 39 button.. and I believe Tim's response was that he only made limited use of the extra buttons and would be quite happy with a 30 button. As far as I can tell, the only major Irish Anglo player who uses the extra buttons is Mícheál Ó Raghallaigh. Though, I could be mistaken on that point .

 

--

Bill

 

On the other hand, the top English style players - Keith Kendrick, John Roberts, John Kirkpatrick etc. do seem to use the 39+ instruments. I suspect this is because of the increased chording options. The South African players seem to prefer 40-button anglos. In this case I think it is because they want the best opportunities to play in a number of keys.

Edited March 20, 2007 by Paul Read

[stella24]

the instrument he has can have the notes added in the direction of pull/push desired by pulling the goofy "squack devices out, plugging the holes and cutting in the dovetail slots for reed frames. i love this on my new model lachenal, and wouldn't want any more than the 32 buttons i have now. wes.

[Hooves]

Also, mine has 2 of its buttons occupied by cry-baby/squeeker sounds, so is really a 37 C/G. Can anyone help with opinions

 

Strange, all my buttons elicit baby crying...

[doodle]

Thanks again everyone - and especially hooves, who clearly comes from the same school of playing as me!!....... and I missed Kilve, too (again) - must get my act together for next year and stop getting "booked-up" for family feasts etc when Witney / Kilve weekends are taking place.

Doodle

[dpmccabe]

As far as I can tell, the only major Irish Anglo player who uses the extra buttons is Mícheál Ó Raghallaigh. Though, I could be mistaken on that point .

I would add Shane Bracken and Padraig Rynne to that list. Still a short list, though. Although, Niall Vallely uses a 30 key and he doesn't seem to have any problems playing difficult tunes in odd keys.

 

Although the original post wasn't about Irish style, the extra keys can be very useful, not just for accidentals but for notes that are only found once otherwise: D#, E, F, F#, G#, A#, c# and d# on a C/G.

[Daniel Hersh]

The English-style Anglo player Andy Turner, whose playing on Anglo International amazes me, plays a 50-button. From listening to his playing I suspect that he's using the the extra buttons both to increase his chord choices and to be able to have more choices about whether to play on push or pull.

 

When you get up to that many buttons I suspect that there's a certain amount of convergence with Chemnitzer (and perhaps bandoneon) technique. A standard Chemnitzer has 52 buttons. The right hand side includes most of its notes in both directions (though on different buttons, as on an Anglo).

 

More importantly, when I look at the various players out there who use concertinas with more than 30 buttons, I see very few that actually take advantage of them. Chris Droney plays a 40 button Wheatstone, but from what I saw in the Catskills last year, he spends most of his playing on the G row only venturing off when he needs a note not present. I would be suprised if he ever used the extra buttons. A friend of mine emails Tim Collins and asked him about his 39 button.. and I believe Tim's response was that he only made limited use of the extra buttons and would be quite happy with a 30 button. As far as I can tell, the only major Irish Anglo player who uses the extra buttons is Mícheál Ó Raghallaigh. Though, I could be mistaken on that point .

--

Bill

On the other hand, the top English style players - Keith Kendrick, John Roberts, John Kirkpatrick etc. do seem to use the 39+ instruments. I suspect this is because of the increased chording options. The South African players seem to prefer 40-button anglos. In this case I think it is because they want the best opportunities to play in a number of keys.

[JimLucas]

The English-style Anglo player Andy Turner, whose playing on Anglo International amazes me, plays a 50-button. From listening to his playing I suspect that he's using the the extra buttons both to increase his chord choices and to be able to have more choices about whether to play on push or pull.

I would say it's more about when to play on push or pull, not "whether". And that could be as much about when to change direction as about when to use a particular direction.

 

When you get up to that many buttons I suspect that there's a certain amount of convergence with Chemnitzer (and perhaps bandoneon) technique. A standard Chemnitzer has 52 buttons. The right hand side includes most of its notes in both directions (though on different buttons, as on an Anglo).

There's that possibility, but my impression is that each of those "techniques" tend also to be "styles", which emphasize certain capabilities while neglecting others. I would also suggest a potential convergence with fiddle technique, where the punctuation provided by particular patterns of changing the direction of the bow can significantly affect the "feel" of a tune.