Fingering Question

[Mikefule]

One of the fascinating things I am finding as a new player is the almost infinite number of ways to finger even quite simple tunes.

 

I have a Rochelle C/G Anglo, 30 key. I find it almost impossible to operate the air button whilst playing.

 

I have been learning a tune: Billy Malley's Barndance (from the excellent Martin Hayes album, "under the Moon").

 

The tune is in G on the recording (as far as my cloth ears can tell) which gives me three choices:

 

Play it in G in the "normal position" on the G row with the right hand. That makes it unpleasantly squeeky.

Play it in G an octave lower, borrowing heavily from the C row.

Play it in C.

 

As a beginner, I decided just playing the tune in the "natural home key" of the box was the best option, so I started to learn it in C.

 

However, the tune has a lot of push notes and not many pull notes, so the bellows kept closing up. Struggling with the air button, I tried a few alternative fingerings to balance out the bellows movements..

 

I started by using the draw G (X-R2?) on some bits. I then found that worked nicely with the draw C (G-L4) - but then that sort of seemed to run naturally with the D and E on G-L5. So far so good until I realised I could play the three notes E,D,E in quick succession using G-L5 and C-R2. I was playing adjacent notes of the scale on different rows and different hands.

 

Now I have a fingering that more or less balances the pushes and pulls (good) and sounds smooth (good), but I am wandering all over both sides of the keyboard, all three rows, and of course any attempt to harmonise is going to be completely thrown because half the notes are in the "wrong" direction.

 

My question to the jury is this: is this sort of experimentation with the fingering a Good Thing that bodes well for the future, or am I going so far off the beaten track that it will only teach me bad habits that I will need to unlearn later. I know there are some "widely accepted" ways of crossing the rows and there are no doubt good reasons.

 

Thanks

[Chris Timson]

One thing you can do with an air button is to hit it at the same time as you are playing a note in the desired direction, on the pull in this case. Counter-intuitive, but works very well and most players do it. I would also encourage you to continue with your experiments. The anglo is not a deductive instrument, it is definitely inductive and you will learn a lot about the instrument by experimenting.

 

Chris

[groeswenphil]

My question to the jury is this: is this sort of experimentation with the fingering a Good Thing that bodes well for the future, or am I going so far off the beaten track that it will only teach me bad habits that I will need to unlearn later. I know there are some "widely accepted" ways of crossing the rows and there are no doubt good reasons.

 

Quite definately a GOOD THING.

 

Getting to know where every note is and in which direction to get that not is actually pretty essential.

In fact......you haven't written the tune down have you? Sounds like a good practise piece.

All the best,

Phil

[Frank Edgley]

I agree, Chris. You have to find your way around the keyboard, and experimenting is the way to do it. Eventually, you will come up with your own system. My only caveat is that unless you come up with a "default" fingering for each note, you will have a difficult time learning new tunes as there will be no predictable pattern, and you will have to figure out the pattern to use for each tune, as they will all be different. This may slow you down. I know it did for me, but then everyone's different, and you may be able to handle it.

Edited February 19, 2007 by Frank Edgley

[richard]

Hi

 

I recommend Noel Hill's cross row fingering system from Noel at one of his workshops.

 

There is a lot of logic and sense to it most of the time. Learning that system doesn't stop you from playing along the rows or any other way, if you choose.

 

I agree with Frank, that for the sake of sanity and simplicity one needs to learn one base system of playing in each key otherwise you are reinventing the wheel each time and every time you learn, and play a tune.

 

Richard

[Chris Timson]

I agree with Frank, that for the sake of sanity and simplicity one needs to learn one base system of playing in each key otherwise you are reinventing the wheel each time and every time you learn, and play a tune.

I would have said that was unlikely, and anyway it is better to work towards your preferred fingering in the light of the music you play. For instance I play in the so-called English style where the melody is on the right hand, and taking the melody part way up the middle row then crossing onto the inner row. It works for the music I play. Neither the English style nor any of the Irish styles would work terribly well for, say, Souza marches. Find your own way, mate.

 

Chris

[hjcjones]

of course any attempt to harmonise is going to be completely thrown because half the notes are in the "wrong" direction.

 

That's where the anglo starts to get really interesting! Not only do you have to balance the bellows directions to avoid running out of air, but you have to get 2, 3 or more notes of the chord AND the melody note all working in the same direction!

 

It sounds impossible at first, but if you have built up a good sense of where the alternative buttons are for each note then it's actually not too bad, and most experienced players can do it "on the fly". When I'm working out a new piece I find that I need to sort out the chords first, and then find a fingering sequence for the melody which will match the bellows direction the chords dictate.

 

I would also support Chris's suggestion about using the air button at the same time as playing the note. This enables you to gain or dump sufficient air without having to "stop for breath"; the alternative is to make loud gasping sounds as you try to gain or lose air in gaps in the tune (which never seem to come at the right places). You may find you need to increase the pressure as you do so to maintain volume. Again, it is something which becomes instinctive with practice, to the point where I seldom consciously think about it.

[Mikefule]

Thanks for the constructive advice and encouragement.

 

I think I am developing a set of standard fingerings with a few standard "emergency variations".

 

For a simple 4 button tune in C, I'd tend to just play on the C row.

 

If I need the 5th button, or the 4th button appears too often, then I tend to cross the row to the G row instead. There are two obvious ways to do this, either using the G push on the C row or the G push on the G row as necessary.

 

After that, there are useful options like using the draw C on the G row on the left hand, and sometimes both notes on the D/E button on the G row on the left hand.

 

My question was really to do with the advisability of using notes from the left hand G row that would normally be played on the right hand C row. I've found a few examples where this either makes a more fluid melody possible, or it helps with bellows direction (or both).

 

The position of the air button is definitely a niggle for me. I have picked up other, smaller, concertinas and had no problem. I am familiar with how an air button ought to work from playing melodeon, so it's not the timing or co-ordination, so much as reaching the bloomin' thing!

 

As for chords - for some reason, these really aren't coming. The theory is all there - I used to be able to write 2 and 3 part harmony many years ago, and I can use the basses reasonably creatively on a melodeon.

 

However, the Anglo seems to want me to play it in mainly single notes, with very occasional fills or vamps, rather like many people pay the English. Maybe it's because I haven't heard enough Anglo being played well, and maybe it's partly the tuning of the reeds which make the chords sound too stodgy for my liking when I do play them.

 

Still, I'm only about a month or so into my Anglo career, so there's a long way to go yet.

[Dana Johnson]

Make your choices for the notes for phrasing first, convenience next. Difficult things get easier with practice.

Use your air button ( feathering while playing a note ) to get air to bring you back to the best playing position as you get the chance (preferrably in small bits rather than one big gasp ). Soon it will be automatic. Noel's cross row fingering system has the advantage of being carefully thought out to optimise a number of factors, but it isn't the only way to skin the cat. If you can, get some lessons from someone who has had the benefit of some good player's knowledge. It is surprising how easy it is to make a lot of unnecessary trouble for yourself going it alone. Don't reinvent the wheel if you don't have to. Plenty of room for your own style once you have a good foundation.

Dana

[Daniel Hersh]

What you're describing is cross-row fingering, which is definitely worth learning. The version of this associated with Noel Hill (though possibly originating with Paddy Murphy or even William Mullaly) is considered by some to be the "right" way to do this for Irish music, but it's certainly not the only possibility as others have pointed out.

 

If your tune is the one here, I'm not sure why you need to transpose it to C. In G, it's in the standard range for a C/G Anglo and allows for a number of cross-fingering possibilities. On C, you actually have fewer options for cross-fingering at the lower end of the range because a number of the lower C-row notes (C, E, F) aren't on the other rows at all.

 

Chording is a whole topic of its own. Do you know what style of music you want to focus on? If it's Irish, most Irish players tend to play primarily in a single-note style (though sometimes with doubling the notes in the octave) with occasional bass honks reminiscent of uillean pipe regulators. If you want to hear an Irish player who often plays multiple notes at once, try Micheal O'Raghhallaigh, as in the second part of the tune he plays on

.

 

If you're interested in English style, which involves tons of chording, that's a completely different discussion...

 

Daniel

 

Thanks for the constructive advice and encouragement.

 

I think I am developing a set of standard fingerings with a few standard "emergency variations".

 

For a simple 4 button tune in C, I'd tend to just play on the C row.

 

If I need the 5th button, or the 4th button appears too often, then I tend to cross the row to the G row instead. There are two obvious ways to do this, either using the G push on the C row or the G push on the G row as necessary.

 

After that, there are useful options like using the draw C on the G row on the left hand, and sometimes both notes on the D/E button on the G row on the left hand.

 

My question was really to do with the advisability of using notes from the left hand G row that would normally be played on the right hand C row. I've found a few examples where this either makes a more fluid melody possible, or it helps with bellows direction (or both).

 

The position of the air button is definitely a niggle for me. I have picked up other, smaller, concertinas and had no problem. I am familiar with how an air button ought to work from playing melodeon, so it's not the timing or co-ordination, so much as reaching the bloomin' thing!

 

As for chords - for some reason, these really aren't coming. The theory is all there - I used to be able to write 2 and 3 part harmony many years ago, and I can use the basses reasonably creatively on a melodeon.

 

However, the Anglo seems to want me to play it in mainly single notes, with very occasional fills or vamps, rather like many people pay the English. Maybe it's because I haven't heard enough Anglo being played well, and maybe it's partly the tuning of the reeds which make the chords sound too stodgy for my liking when I do play them.

 

Still, I'm only about a month or so into my Anglo career, so there's a long way to go yet.

[Graham Collicutt]

Thanks for the constructive advice and encouragement.

 

I think I am developing a set of standard fingerings with a few standard "emergency variations".

 

For a simple 4 button tune in C, I'd tend to just play on the C row.

 

If I need the 5th button, or the 4th button appears too often, then I tend to cross the row to the G row instead. There are two obvious ways to do this, either using the G push on the C row or the G push on the G row as necessary.

 

After that, there are useful options like using the draw C on the G row on the left hand, and sometimes both notes on the D/E button on the G row on the left hand.

 

My question was really to do with the advisability of using notes from the left hand G row that would normally be played on the right hand C row. I've found a few examples where this either makes a more fluid melody possible, or it helps with bellows direction (or both).

 

The position of the air button is definitely a niggle for me. I have picked up other, smaller, concertinas and had no problem. I am familiar with how an air button ought to work from playing melodeon, so it's not the timing or co-ordination, so much as reaching the bloomin' thing!

 

As for chords - for some reason, these really aren't coming. The theory is all there - I used to be able to write 2 and 3 part harmony many years ago, and I can use the basses reasonably creatively on a melodeon.

 

However, the Anglo seems to want me to play it in mainly single notes, with very occasional fills or vamps, rather like many people pay the English. Maybe it's because I haven't heard enough Anglo being played well, and maybe it's partly the tuning of the reeds which make the chords sound too stodgy for my liking when I do play them.

 

Still, I'm only about a month or so into my Anglo career, so there's a long way to go yet.

 

A quick extension to air button. 2 coins, one with hole size of air button, glued with hot melt.

 

I first did this to releave pressure on a chap on side of thumb. This was the head of a stainless steel bolt cut down about 5 mm thick, which looked much better. I kept that for at least 10 years before losing it.

 

Breaks off when needed for repairs and reapplied with heat to coins.

[geoffwright]

Just looking at the barn dance, I would play most of it on the C row (up to the high d), from high e upwards on the G row, and also use the low F# and D on the G row (more or less Noel Hills suggested method).

It is worth practising as above, if only for the ornaments that become available on the pull f#/e and C/B buttons.

 

If any of this is unclear - please feel free to ask.