Build It Yourself Midi Concertina Controller

[Chris Timson]

In response to my original query, where I mentioned I'd heard he would do an English and asked if he'd do an Anglo, he said "From technical point of view there is no difference between instruments other than buttons number and notes they produce upon pulling/pushing bellows. Hence, your Anglo concertina might be turned into MIDI instrument as well."

I'm sorry, but that is just plain wrong. It betrays a lack of understanding of the different nature of bellows control between anglos and Englishes. Not for nothing do the quality makers make different sorts of bellows for the two systems.

 

Chris

 

Edited to add PS: the point being that if you do not allow for those differences then your MIDI anglo is going to play very strangely indeed, and possibly your MIDI English might as well.

Edited January 9, 2007 by Chris Timson

[Geraghty]

If it's already got anglo bellows from starting out as an anglo concertina, and he programmes the software to play one note in one direction and a different one in the other direction, shouldn't it be all right? What problems do you forsee?

[Chris Timson]

If it's already got anglo bellows from starting out as an anglo concertina, and he programmes the software to play one note in one direction and a different one in the other direction, shouldn't it be all right? What problems do you forsee?

The problem, and it is one that exercised Roy and I quite royally (as it were) is that reeds do not act like switches, especially when you reverse direction while holding down a button - something you don't usually do on an English but is commonplace on an anglo. If this chap does as he says the result will sound completely wrong. Still, since he's so sanguine about it we'll let him discover just how it will sound wrong in his own time.

 

Chris

[Martin Milner]

Will his work allow us to change the tunings ourselves? His reply didn't have much detail, but I've sent some questions.

 

In response to my original query, where I mentioned I'd heard he would do an English and asked if he'd do an Anglo, he said "From technical point of view there is no difference between instruments other than buttons number and notes they produce upon pulling/pushing bellows. Hence, your Anglo concertina might be turned into MIDI instrument as well."

 

He quoted a price of 500 euro for a self-contained unit with headphone output but didn't give any details about what features it would have. I now have to decide which box to put it in - a smaller sized metal ended one (preferred if he can do it) or a larger-than-usual wooden ended one. Both German. I've asked him if he has any requirements for the supplied casing.

 

Hi Chris,

 

Are you familiar with the Streb e-Melodeon produced by Steve Rouse?

 

An e-Anglo concertina would employ the same system, but need to be packed into a much smaller space.

 

Steve has considered the e-anglo concertina, but for now is busy (outisde of his day job) producing melodeons and doesn't have time to do a sideline.

[Geraghty]

The problem, and it is one that exercised Roy and I quite royally (as it were) is that reeds do not act like switches, especially when you reverse direction while holding down a button - something you don't usually do on an English but is commonplace on an anglo. If this chap does as he says the result will sound completely wrong. Still, since he's so sanguine about it we'll let him discover just how it will sound wrong in his own time.

 

I think he's got it under control, as the description of the electronics suggests that air pressure plays a role in determining the note played - similar to the Streb mentioned above. The maker's website states that the electronics can be used for a bandoneon, which has a push/pull setup similar to an anglo's, and also states that it uses a "bi-directional differential air pressure sensor, sensing the pressure value and bellows movement direction" ...so it won't be the button acting as a lone switch, but a combination of button and air pressure. I imagine that for an English he'd set it up something like:

 

Button A + pressure>atm = note 1

Button A + pressure<atm = note 1

 

and for Anglo:

 

Button A + pressure>atm = note 1

Button A + pressure<atm = note 2

 

But we'll find out in a few months...

[Chris Timson]

But we'll find out in a few months...

Indeed.

 

Chris

[S-Wave]

How does one contacts Dean Onyon?

 

You do a search for "onyon midi concertina" or you can shortcut that by going directly to www.s-wave.co.uk or you can shortcut that shortcut by e-mailing me at enquiries@s-wave.co.uk.

 

How can I help?

Dean Onyon

[sidesqueeze]

How does one contacts Dean Onyon?

 

You do a search for "onyon midi concertina" or you can shortcut that by going directly to www.s-wave.co.uk or you can shortcut that shortcut by e-mailing me at enquiries@s-wave.co.uk.

 

How can I help?

Dean Onyon

 

 

Dean,

 

You can help by making 30 button anglos!

[S-Wave]

Point taken.

[ragtimer]

How can I help?

Dean Onyon

I'd take it as a BIG help if someone would make a MIDI Hayden Duet setup. It's the same notes push or pull.

 

Besides hte obvious advantages of silent practice and compact size (imagine your seatmates when you pull it out and start practicing on an airliner), I'd really like to be able to play at least a "wet" accordion or bandoneon sound on my Hayden, not to mention pipe organ or trumpet in the RH and piano or bass in the LH.

 

Yes, for Duets you want separate MIDI channels for the two sides, which play independently.

 

The Hayden button layout is so powerful -- it's a shame to limit it to a one-reed sound.

 

I'd be happy just to have a small practice instrument with no "bellows" motion at all -- and yes, it would be handy to play it with each half lying flat in the case (plus you could cheat and look at your fingers

Bring out a compact MIDI-only Hayden and I'll put money where my mouth is -- Mike K.

[ragtimer]

How does one contacts Dean Onyon?

 

You do a search for "onyon midi concertina" or you can shortcut that by going directly to www.s-wave.co.uk Dean Onyon

Well Dean, I just hit your website (thanks for the link) and am way impressed. I like your ideas of having different MIDI "stops" (sounds) on push versus pull, and also your idea of adding more channels (and thus layering sounds) as the player increases pressure. On pipe organs we clal that a "crescendo pedal" as opposed to the common "swell pedal" that corresponds to "MIDI Volume."

 

I see you offer an optional Yamaha MU15 tone module. That's the same neat little box I've been using for years in my composing studio, and I think you've made a great choice. It can be battery operated too.

 

I still play euphonium, as you did. Must have worn out your 3rd valve, playing in sharp keys like G and D on a Bb instrument

 

Anyway, Dean, you seem to have a fine product. If I were an English player I'd probably have mailed my US $3K check by now -- but will await your Hayden model (I can dream). --Mike K.

[Chris Timson]

I'd take it as a BIG help if someone would make a MIDI Hayden Duet setup.

I don't know if that chap from Australia's plans have got anywhere yet, but it occurs to me that if you could get hold of a Stagi Hayden you could get Roy to convert it for you.

 

Chris

[Theo]

I'd take it as a BIG help if someone would make a MIDI Hayden Duet setup. It's the same notes push or pull.

 

It sounds as if what you are looking for is already on the way in The Thummer

[ragtimer]

I'd take it as a BIG help if someone would make a MIDI Hayden Duet setup. It's the same notes push or pull.

 

It sounds as if what you are looking for is already on the way in The Thummer

Wow! They really do show a mock-up (or even a prototype?) of the sort of instrument I was imagining -- a pair of Wicki-Hayden keyboards laid out flat. Could be mounted like concertina ends, too. I didn't see anything in their "Project Status" about how far along the actual instrument is, but from what others have done, it could "easily" be built today.

 

The musical analysis and theory are very fine, and I will spend more time on that part of their documentation later. I don't know that their new musical notation and staff format will get anywhere. But this really does show how great the Wicki-Hayden layout is.

Thanks for the link -- Mike K.

[m3838]

I'd take it as a BIG help if someone would make a MIDI Hayden Duet setup. It's the same notes push or pull.

 

It sounds as if what you are looking for is already on the way in The Thummer

Wow! They really do show a mock-up (or even a prototype?) of the sort of instrument I was imagining -- a pair of Wicki-Hayden keyboards laid out flat. Could be mounted like concertina ends, too. I didn't see anything in their "Project Status" about how far along the actual instrument is, but from what others have done, it could "easily" be built today.

 

The musical analysis and theory are very fine, and I will spend more time on that part of their documentation later. I don't know that their new musical notation and staff format will get anywhere. But this really does show how great the Wicki-Hayden layout is.

Thanks for the link -- Mike K.

 

The Thummer will not go anywhere. They refuse to supply ready market with Hayden Duet Midi Concertinas, but try to wind-up a totally new musical instrument and a new notation system. There is very little need for ither of them today. Sometimes people just destined to miss opportunities. Imagine full scale Hayden Duet, midi, bellowless, but with the pressure censor, at $500! They'd be backed up with orders almost immediately.

[ragtimer]

The Thummer will not go anywhere. They refuse to supply ready market with Hayden Duet Midi Concertinas, but try to wind-up a totally new musical instrument and a new notation system. There is very little need for ither of them today. Sometimes people just destined to miss opportunities. Imagine full scale Hayden Duet, midi, bellowless, but with the pressure censor, at $500! They'd be backed up with orders almost immediately.

I do have to agrree with you -- that by tying their (partly) new instrument to their proseletising for a radical makeover of Western music education and practice, they are throwing a lot of heavy baggage in the way of getting the actual instrumenet out into people's hands.

 

Now, a good marketing trick (that we would love) would be for them to start making and selling the instruments, bundled with an instruction manual using all their new ideas. That would let the horse pull the cart -- some of us might read the manual and get interested in their notations and theories, after seeing how much fun and use the instrument is.

 

BTW, I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea -- if/when a Hayden Duet tina with a few more than 46 buttons and better quality comes out, I will invest in the "genuine article." But a practice instrument that's silent and able to reproduce other instrument sounds is just too tempting

 

Where did you get the $500 figure? Thummer Ltd's estimate, or yours? That sounds feasible, in mass production. ... Mike K

Edited February 5, 2007 by ragtimer

[David Barnert]

I'd take it as a BIG help if someone would make a MIDI Hayden Duet setup. It's the same notes push or pull.

 

--[snip]--

 

I'd be happy just to have a small practice instrument with no "bellows" motion at all -- and yes, it would be handy to play it with each half lying flat in the case (plus you could cheat and look at your fingers

Bring out a compact MIDI-only Hayden and I'll put money where my mouth is -- Mike K.

Sorry for not responding sooner. I've been off concertina.net for a couple weeks.

 

I take it you've not seen this picture:

 

 

It's me playing the MIDI Hayden mockup referred to in the post that started this thread. See also the 2nd post. Paul Everett, who built it, is on the right. If the furniture looks familiar it's because it's in the parlor of Bucksteep Manor at the 2001 NE Squeeze-In (before you started going, Mike).

 

Is this not exactly what you had in mind?

[m3838]

The Thummer will not go anywhere. They refuse to supply ready market with Hayden Duet Midi Concertinas, but try to wind-up a totally new musical instrument and a new notation system. There is very little need for ither of them today. Sometimes people just destined to miss opportunities. Imagine full scale Hayden Duet, midi, bellowless, but with the pressure censor, at $500! They'd be backed up with orders almost immediately.

I do have to agrree with you -- that by tying their (partly) new instrument to their proseletising for a radical makeover of Western music education and practice, they are throwing a lot of heavy baggage in the way of getting the actual instrumenet out into people's hands.

 

Now, a good marketing trick (that we would love) would be for them to start making and selling the instruments, bundled with an instruction manual using all their new ideas. That would let the horse pull the cart -- some of us might read the manual and get interested in their notations and theories, after seeing how much fun and use the instrument is.

 

BTW, I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea -- if/when a Hayden Duet tina with a few more than 46 buttons and better quality comes out, I will invest in the "genuine article." But a practice instrument that's silent and able to reproduce other instrument sounds is just too tempting

 

Where did you get the $500 figure? Thummer Ltd's estimate, or yours? That sounds feasible, in mass production. ... Mike K

 

$500 was their estimate, not mine. I was in correspondence with the inventor. His idea of notation is interesting. I have the similar idea. Only his gets rid of sharps and flats, and the key signatures at the expence of bulkiness of the stave, and mine uses the existing system, but simplifies it, so there is no difference between the octaves, and therefore, the cleffs. Mine is easier to learn, slimmer, but still slightly more bulky than the common one. He was on the forum, and perhabs even reading this now, and I asked him why doesn't he start with the easy profit. But he had (or still has) bigger ambition. Oh well.

BTW, while it would be nice to have silent practice instrument, it is hard to underestimate the importance of bellows to the expressiveness. Perhabs it takes a month to learn a tune by heart, but it takes forever to make it sound reasonable. So some hundreds of dollars for simple MIDI device may be wasted. Just a thought in contradiction to my own earlier expectations.

In the meanwhile, between treating my little one's percieved ear infection and older one adolescent complexes and percieved face assymmetry, I'm working on concertina silencer, called "The Husher".

Simplicity rules!

Edited February 10, 2007 by m3838