C/g V G/d Anlgo

[Theo]

I have heard other musicians joking about deliberately not playing in G or D in order to upset melodeon players, but that says it all.

 

I play melodeon and harmonica. I often choose to play harmonica in C because melodeonists hunt in packs, and will ruthlessly chase and kill any D/G melody played sweetly and quietly. Many meleodeonists are melodeon operators rather than musicians. They can do tunes really really fast and loud, but they can't make nice music. This does not apply to all melodeonists, but it is definitely an observable phenomenon. The only other instrument that is so habitually ruthless is the inexpertly played bodhran.

 

Speaking as a melodeon player I wholeheartedly agree! I much prefer to hang out with fiddle players than other melodeon operators.

 

The fiddle players are generally better looking too

[geoffwright]

Does anyone know what Mary Macnamara play on Traditional Music From East Clare - it seems lower in tone that a standard C/G.

 

I asked her the same question and she tells me

 

D/G concertina - Tracks 1 and 13

Bflat/F concertina Tracks 2, 4, 6, 8 and 11

C/G concertina Track 3, 5, 7, 9, 10, 12, 14 and 15

[Paul Groff]

It's true that great music can be played on the 2-row instruments, and if that's the style you want to pursue... go for it. But the vast majority of top-notch players today are playing 3-row C/G instruments. If you endeavor to play in that style, that's the concertina you'll need. It's all a matter of what style of music you wish to play.

 

Hi Jack,

 

I know where you're coming from, but I think your point may be misunderstood by some here. It's probably true that in Irish music today most anglo players will want or need a top quality three row instrument by the time they are "top-notch" as you say. Not so true of today's Irish box players, some of the best of whom play 1 row melodeon with 10 keys, or of the great cajun accordion players mentioned above. Of course, some of those top-notch melodeon and cajun accordion players choose to own several or even many different one-row instruments, but that doesn't take away from the fact that when they play their brilliant music they are doing it all with 10 buttons.

 

But most beginning and intermediate Irish-style anglo players go through a period in which they can not or will not commit the price of a used car to buying a top-quality 3 row. Since many of them have gotten the idea that making good Irish music on the anglo REQUIRES 30 keys (often based on misinformation from this site and other modern resources), they compromise the quality of their instrument rather than the number of buttons. No cajun player would make that mistake because they understand the point made above, that the rhythm and the tone makes the music. Similarly, no highland bagpiper (9 notes not counting drones!) would compromise quality of tone and response to get more notes. Musicians in these traditions are consistently told that they must work within a limited vocabulary of notes and devote thousands of hours of practice to nailing the rhythm just right.

 

My point is that the same option is available to Irish anglo players. They can take settings of hundreds of tunes from the best of the pre-WW2 players (and also some lovely current players), which require only 20 keys and sound lovely. That is more than enough tunes to keep a beginner going until they are an expert who would rather invest in a great concertina than a car. For $1600 you can take a good Lachenal steel reeded 20 key and hotrod it, replacing the short bellows and the bad action and upgrading the reeds so that you have a great sounding instrument with traditional reed response, but much faster than Mrs. Crotty's 3 row Lachenal (BTW she only used 2 rows in the tunes that she recorded).

 

Your comment about "different styles" is true but can be slippery. For example, Noel Hill can easily play great music on a 20 key. He may not be using all of his bag of tricks, but that is beside the point. He doesn't need that entire bag of tricks to sound great, so again this shows that rhythm, taste, knowledge of how to work within the limitations of the instrument are the necessary ingredients of the best quality music. I have heard that a few years ago he tried to place a student playing a 20 key hotrod Lachenal into his "advanced" class in the US, above other students who own but cannot fully control their more expensive 3 rows. The student with the 20 key had only been playing 6 months and was wise enough to want to stay with the intermediates, but the point is that she was successful in sounding good by the standards of Irish trad, and the other students playing “in more keys” and “with more keys” were not as successful.

 

I wish more anglo students, especially those I see here in the US, would master a few simple tunes and make them honestly sound good rather than divide their energies among many different tunes (indifferently played) across the chromatic spectrum. I really think that by focusing in and getting a few tunes in a few keys just right and very solid rhythmically they would make much faster progress, even if their ultimate goal is to play in every key on a 3 row. And for this approach, a year or three on a hotrod 20 key would be a perfect foundation, no matter what "style" they want to achieve in the end. I’m saying that even if you wish to go for a modern style using the third row for ornaments, octaves, reversals, or chromaticism, you may achieve good rhythm (hence good quality) in that style faster by concentrating for a year or three on what can be learned from a good 2 row: posture, physical control of the keyboards and bellows, air supply, how to start and stop a note with split-second timing regardless of what was before or will come after, timing, accent, and articulation of successive notes, controlling air pressure on a traditional concertina reed, and of course the layout of the core keyboard of 20 buttons that are also most often played on a three row.

 

Obviously everyone is different and good luck to everyone learning and teaching in the way they wish! However some curmudgeons believe that there is a lot of poorly-executed, complicated music being attempted (murdered some might say) in the name of "Irish style 3 row anglo" these days.... Maybe this is the sound that Dave Prebble criticizes above, believing it really to be Irish (or Irish-influenced) music, when it is just bad music.

 

All the best,

 

Paul

[Larryo]

As someone who has recently started playing concertina having played fiddle , I think a lot of what Paul says rings true for me. There is not one well known/top notch/recording performer of Irish trad from Ireland on any instrument , who did not start playing when in teens or indeed in a lot of cases earlier. Although I obviously can't speak in definites for all of these, by and large they went though the same process- they learnt a tune from the local teacher and that tune might be taught over a couple of weeks. And so on. Tunes were learnt slowly, over a period of time and integrated and in the case of say for example Mary McNamara, she only learnt tunes from her locality for the first while. So each tune became part of them, part of their very being and was played then with the elders in a encouraging environment. The tunes were simple and you learnt how to walk before you ran and you learnt how to give each tune the respect it deserved.

When I started playing the fiddle, I initially made the mistake of as Paul says, spreading my energies out over loads of different tunes, in different keys etc and only when I half knew a load of tunes, did I realise the error of my ways. When I then went to a well known player for one on one lessons, he immediately copped I was all flash and put me back on simple jigs- which did nothing for the ego !!

I think that whilst realising that you cannot play very technical stuff(note wise) in a range of keys without a third row, you can play very very good music without it and the fact is that the difference between the really good players and the rest, is that they can take up and 20 button and make it sing and the extra row is for "other stuff". Of course if you want to copy exactly a recorded tune then you can be banging your head off a stone wall if you don't have an instrument similar in set up the the recording artist. For example, it would be foolish of me to try to imitate a Tim Collins or Micheál O'Raghallaigh recorded track, regardless of my ability, when they are both playing off 38 button. But stupid as I might appear, knowing that only came after years of pain on the fiddle and I now realise that the priority on this instrument is to master the simple tunes first and when and only when I can make them sing can I entertain thoughts of moving on to the big tunes. I do play a good instument and hopefully shortly will have a better one, but I cannot do as I did before and blame it all on the instrument. If I want to play in the big sessions with the big boys, sure I might need 3 rows but the big boys generally don't have much time for the guy playing the Jeffries/Suttner/ Wheatstone whilst murdering a tune and will give more time and encouragement to the fella playing Saddle The Pony well, in time and with rhythm. But as adult, having the patience to learn the basics first is easier said than done !!

[Alan Miller]

I believe there is much meat in the comments from Paul and Larry. They raise a point that is recurring frustration for me. When I attend week long workshops such as at Irish Arts Week in the Catskills or at the NHICS, tunes are given out in the morning and afternoon, so that I find myself swamped with material to learn. This may be ok for advanced players, but for me it means that less time is spent (and feedback given) on matters such as rhythm. In contrast, when I take individual lessons or in small groups, I try to stay with one tune for a while. This has led my recent teachers (Chris Stevens and Tim Collins) to exhort me to slow down and concentrate on rhythm above all else. I am beginning to feel/hear the difference but it may take the "thousands" of hours that Paul mentioned before it really drives my music.

 

This takes me to Larry's comments about the fact that the recognized and recorded Irish musicians started early in life. Clearly the young person has some advantages in learning. I think that an "older" person can also learn to play well, although perhaps the learning will be at a different pace. I suspect there are many reasons for this, but one may be that the older person has so much information and desire, and he/she may not have the patience to learn the basic steps of walking before running.

 

I think that today we have "advantages" over earlier generations that should make music much easier to learn, but in fact it may motivate us to try to do too much in the beginning. Today we have incredible access to CD's of great musicians. We can listen to them in our homes, in our cars, and when we walk or workout. We can slow them down to try to play along with, and to break down the ornaments. We have so much information to process, that we may lose focus, and we may try to do too much. We don't often have the opportunity to sit at a kitchen table and work on basic concepts with a knowledgeable musician. I have been able to do this a few times with Tim Collins at his home, and the experience is incredibly helpful. I look forward to renewing it when he is in the U.S. in the Winter and Spring.

 

Paul's and Larry's, comments that really reinforce what teachers (Chris and Tim) have told me, that it is essential to feel and nail the rhythm on each tune. The impatience of an adult learner, combined with the desire to emulate one of the great musicians, may be a distraction to the basic learning process. On the other hand, the sheer passion, and dedication to practice of an adult may compensate for many of the advantages that a younger learner has.

 

I hope that Paul has overstated the number of required "hours" in his comment that it is necessary to "devote thousands of hours of practice to nailing the rhythm just right." I am still working on my first thousand hours, but I am encouraged by his comment that rhythm is something that others have to work on, and requires lots of practice. That sure is true for me.

 

Alan

[Larryo]

I think that you are right Alan in that age does bring it's advantages( and thank gawd for that). However as you mentioned, I for one need to control those advantages. For example, when I first got my "O'Neills" many years ago, the time I spent flicking through it and sampling this tune or another, whilst enjoyable, might have been better spent on scales or practicing the tunes I sort of half knew !! And then the internet arrived with it's thousands of tunes !! In some ways for me the learning as an adult can be if I am not careful. a bit "battery hen" like - so many tunes- so little time, whilst a young girl or boy might learn their tune, do their practice and then off to play, watch telly, chase the opposite sex whatever and in this way the tunes are assimilated in maybe a more natural and gradual way. Me? I learn a tune, play it a few times and immediately am frustrated if I can't bring up a couple of notches and throw in half a dozen cuts/crans which I have heard the current "idol" play !!!

[Stephen Chambers]

I can't help feeling that for English folk music an instrument with a home key in C (i.e. a C/G Anglo) is somewhat anachronistic given the modern shift to G and D as preferred keys.

When did that occur? My tune books that go back to the 1850's show a marked preference for G and D. If there ever was a shift, it was a looooong time ago.

 

I seem to remember reading this somewhere. I will try to find more evidence. But two possible bits of evidence spring to mind:

 

(1) Kimber certainly played in C (if only because he had a 20-key C/G Anglo) but few Morris musicians would do this today.

This topic has arisen before, so let me save some typing and quote myself, answering questions on this theme from earlier threads in this forum :

 

So is Cajun music the only traditional music where the Accordion (single row melodeon for those unfamiliar with Cajun music) became so dominant that it changed the most popular key for the music?

For a start, how about English traditional music (as opposed to the revival of it), whenever a free reed instrument was/is involved ?

 

Let me save some typing and quote myself, answering a question on this theme from an earlier thread in this forum :

 

... how did Kimber and Father Ken and the others do it? Was Morris music played in C in their day?

Morris (and other forms of folk dance music) was played in whatever keys suited the instruments being used, most of the old free reed ones being pitched in C, though the tunes were often written down from the playing of fiddle, or tabor-pipe, players, so they tend to be notated for instruments pitched in D.

 

You will find, for example, that the traditional East-Anglian melodeon players have always played in C. I bought several instruments, only last year, that had belonged to one of them (the late Cyril Stannard, from Suffolk), who had single-row C's, and double-row G/C, C/F, C/C# and B/C boxes (though he also had a "new-fangled", seemingly unused, D/G), but it was always the C-row that had got all the playing. Fiddle players would simply tune down a tone, and play in C (using D fingering), just as they still do in Cajun music.

 

The playing of G/D concertinas, and D/G melodeons, is a relatively new, post-war, development. The first, commercially made, D/G accordions were built by Hagstrom (who set up a factory in Sunderland [read Darlington, I didn't have my notes with me], after WWII), for the English Folk Dance and Song Society, in !949. The very first Hohner D/G's only appeared in the early 1950's. The system was so new that a 1957 article in English Dance & Song, "What you can do with the melodeon", doesn't even mention it !

 

 

(2) Wasn't the Clarke tin whistle originally made in C?

Clarke's whistle indeed also originally was in C, perhaps to make it easy to play with other storebought mechanical instruments of the era....concertinas and melodeons.

That would be true for most of the twentieth century, but in fact they were available in various keys in the nineteenth century. The lowest antique Clarke's that I own is an A, the highest a G.

[Mikefule]

The fiddle players are generally better looking too

 

Better looking than a typical melodeon player? Did you know Potter Hanworth is one of the highest points in the fens?

 

Until recently, I considered myself to be a pretty good harmonica player, limited only by being too lazy to extend my repertoire, and by the "inherent limitations" of the instrument. But I was recently given a CD of Brendan Power and I now recognise that I have only a nodding acquaintance with the harmonica as an unfamiliar and mysterious instrument occasionally seen in the distance across a crowded smoky room on a foggy day. Much humbled, I may now give up all aspirations to "step up" to a concertina, and restrict myself to humming along quietly when no one is listening.

[m3838]

 

The fiddle players are generally better looking too

 

Better looking than a typical melodeon player? Did you know Potter Hanworth is one of the highest points in the fens?

 

Until recently, I considered myself to be a pretty good harmonica player, limited only by being too lazy to extend my repertoire, and by the "inherent limitations" of the instrument. But I was recently given a CD of Brendan Power and I now recognise that I have only a nodding acquaintance with the harmonica as an unfamiliar and mysterious instrument occasionally seen in the distance across a crowded smoky room on a foggy day. Much humbled, I may now give up all aspirations to "step up" to a concertina, and restrict myself to humming along quietly when no one is listening.

 

Brendan Power completely killed me. I haven't listened to his CD, but I looked at his website. I was particularly impressed by his offer of a fully chromatic 10 hole harmonica with no button.

[Phantom Button]

Hi Paul, I understand what you're saying, and I can play a good few tunes on a 20-button instrument and use the techniques I've developed on my 3-row instrument easy enough, but that wasn't why I chose a 3-row instrument to begin with. As you know, my interest is limited to the Irish repertoire and styles. I'm also interested in the techniques of players like Noel Hill, Tim Collins, Micheál O'Raghallaigh, etc. But the main reason I chose the 3-row was because I didn't want my repertoire to be limited by the instrument. When I had my first 2-row concertina I quickly became frustrated with what seemed to be missing notes for tunes I wanted to play... so I went searching for a replacement that included those missing notes -- a 3-row. But that's just me.

 

The reason I chose a C/G was because that's what Noel Hill was playing. Back when you and I first met you might remember that I held a workshop for Noel in my house (1986?) and he showed us how he made the C# button the same in both directions. I immediately altered my instrument, not because I fully understood why, but because I was taking my cues from Noel. If I was more interested in the playing of Kitty Hayes I would be playing everything in C that I normally play in D and I'd take my cues from her. It's just a different style. The reason I'm mentioning this is because that's the way I do things. Other people might be playing concertina for completely different reasons and with different influences. These are just a few of mine.

[frogspawn]

If I played in Irish sessions I'd buy a 30-button C/G Anglo and go with the flow, but as much as I like Irish music that isn't my musical environment. I live in SE England and a friend advised me to get the Lewes Arms collection of tunes as a guide to local session favourites. Almost every tune in that book is in G or D. In that environment it's easy to understand why so many people seem to prefer G/D to C/G.

 

But as my own central interest is in song accompaniment, I decided (since starting this thread) that an Anglo was rather limiting and am about to become the proud owner of a Crane Duet...

 

Richard

[Dan Worrall]

[

(2) Wasn't the Clarke tin whistle originally made in C?

Clarke's whistle indeed also originally was in C, perhaps to make it easy to play with other storebought mechanical instruments of the era....concertinas and melodeons.

That would be true for most of the twentieth century, but in fact they were available in various keys in the nineteenth century. The lowest antique Clarke's that I own is an A, the highest a G.

Upon checking, I found the following; indeed the key of A whistle seems to have been made first, according to Wikipedia: "Clarke's first whistles were pitched in high A and were later made in other keys suitable for Victorian parlor music. The company showed the whistles in The Great Exhibition of 1851.[7]" Interesting; as you agree, it was the C Clarke whistle we used to see for sale in the 70's and 80's, even alongside racks of Generation whistles in multitudes of keys. Any idea why that was? Maybe I missed them, but I remember often looking for a D one without success, as I liked the tone of the Clarke more. I still figure that as a free-reed effect, but don't really know.

[Chris Timson]

But as my own central interest is in song accompaniment, I decided (since starting this thread) that an Anglo was rather limiting and am about to become the proud owner of a Crane Duet...

Well, once you've had it a lttle while, let us know how it turns out.

 

Chris

[Robin Madge]

As I am now the proud owner of a 36 button baritone C/G it is interesting to see how many of the D/G tunes i can give harmonies to in sessions. It's only the few "D" tunes that I normally lead that send me scurrying back to the D/G, everything else gets a harmony, and it sounds great if I lead off Liberty Bell in C.

 

Robin Madge

[Stephen Chambers]

(2) Wasn't the Clarke tin whistle originally made in C?

Clarke's whistle indeed also originally was in C, perhaps to make it easy to play with other storebought mechanical instruments of the era....concertinas and melodeons.

That would be true for most of the twentieth century, but in fact they were available in various keys in the nineteenth century. The lowest antique Clarke's that I own is an A, the highest a G.

Upon checking, I found the following; indeed the key of A whistle seems to have been made first, according to Wikipedia: "Clarke's first whistles were pitched in high A and were later made in other keys suitable for Victorian parlor music. The company showed the whistles in The Great Exhibition of 1851.[7]" Interesting; as you agree, it was the C Clarke whistle we used to see for sale in the 70's and 80's, even alongside racks of Generation whistles in multitudes of keys. Any idea why that was? Maybe I missed them, but I remember often looking for a D one without success, as I liked the tone of the Clarke more. I still figure that as a free-reed effect, but don't really know.

Dan,

 

Don't get me started about Clarke's whistles and their history! I still get upset when I think about the way that they (especially Norman Dannatt) treated me.

 

I've been collecting old tinwhistles for many years, and when Jim Weedon took over their manufacture he was interested in the history of the firm and wanted to start making them in other keys, and heard that I had a collection of early ones, so I agreed to lend him what I had "for examination".

 

I was given to understand that they would be returned in a few weeks, but then found problems getting them back and several months later discovered that my whistles had been put on exhibition at a museum in Bury St.Edmonds (I had to fly over from Ireland to Stansted and Steve Dickinson met me and drove me there, to identify them and confirm that they were there), and illustrated in Norman Dannatt's book, all without my knowledge or permission, and without the common courtesy of an acknowledgement that they were mine.

 

Anyway, I'd take some of that "history" of Clarke's with a pinch of salt, for example: I've done a lot of studying of the musical instruments in the Great Exhibition Catalogue, but never seen anything to suggest that Robert Clarke exhibited there.

 

And a high G Clarke's is very small for most people to play (shorter than a Generation), so can you imagine how playable a high A would be for most pennywhistlers?

Edited December 21, 2006 by Stephen Chambers

[frogspawn]

But as my own central interest is in song accompaniment, I decided (since starting this thread) that an Anglo was rather limiting and am about to become the proud owner of a Crane Duet...

Well, once you've had it a lttle while, let us know how it turns out.

 

Chris

 

I'll be happy to share my experiences in due course. Beginners are always advised to try out different systems, but judging from many of the postings here a lot of us aren't really likely to get that opportunity anytime soon and have to fall back on 'desk studies', so many thanks to concertina.net.

 

I was going to upgrade to another Anglo, but the Crane impinged on my consciousness and its apparent logic and versatility seemed to recommend it, but let me not speak too soon! Do I recall that you were dabbling with one yourself?

 

Richard

[Chris Timson]

Do I recall that you were dabbling with one yourself?

Yes, for a short while, but I decided that one system was as much as my remaining brain cells could cope with (and besides, what with the Anglodeon and the MIDI anglo and theC/G baritone as well as the G/D I already have an unreasonably large amount of variation available to me). I have given the Crane on long term loan to Mick Tems, who had a stroke affecting the left side like me, but much worse. We're hoping he should be able to use the right hand end to play melody. Mick finds post-stroke that it is difficult to distinguish push from pull, which knocks out the melodeon and anglo he used to play. Hopefully this will not be a problem with the Crane. I had exactly the same problem myself and it was quite distressing at first, but fortunately it faded over the course of a few months. Mick has not been anywhere near as lucky as I.

 

Chris

[PeterT]

Mick finds post-stroke that it is difficult to distinguish push from pull, which knocks out the melodeon and anglo he used to play. Hopefully this will not be a problem with the Crane. I had exactly the same problem myself and it was quite distressing at first, but fortunately it faded over the course of a few months. Mick has not been anywhere near as lucky as I.

Chris,

 

Are you in regular contact with Mick? I mailed him early this year, but did not receive a response. Perhaps you could pass on my best wishes to a great guy, and equally good musician. The music of Mick and Pat gave me a lot of pleasure.

 

As my old Mum says; count you blessings. I would hate to suffer the same condition.

 

Regards,

Peter.