C/g V G/d Anlgo

[Dave Higham]

Stephen, you're quite right of course, which is why, when I explain to French musicians that no it's not a bandoneon and that it's like their 'diato' but sort of 'inside-out'. Which is probably why Emanuelle Pariselle pestered Colin Dipper for so long until he finally gave in and made him the first 'Franglo'. But I digress,.... I feel another thread coming on...

[Chris Timson]

Which is probably why Emanuelle Pariselle pestered Colin Dipper for so long until he finally gave in and made him the first 'Franglo'

I'm not sure that could have Colin needed that much pestering, since the franglo, if you see Colin in sessions, is his instrument of preference (along with the serpent).

 

Chris

 

PS for serpent lovers, the Anaconda was on telly (Channel 4) last night.

[Dan Worrall]

The books from the 1850's showing a preference for G and D were fiddle tune books (eg, Coles Fiddle Tunes, the "Fiddler's Bible") or those attuned to the general market, which was of course dominated by the fiddle (eg, O'Neill's Music of Ireland). G and D are of course the easy keys on the fiddle.

I guess my copy of Howe's was one for the "general market" - it says for "violin, flute, clarinet, cornet, fife, flageolet pr any treble instrument" - and all the tunes are in the keys one would typically find people playing them in today with the possible exception that the Scottish section has far fewer A tunes than I'm used to seeing around these days.

 

So these settings were fiddle-driven? I would assume that if the tunes were originally composed on fiddle then it would make them "right" yet if they came from another instrument and were fiddlized, then there'd be translation loss or drift making them "different" (possibly "wrong" even). On some tunes we know where they came from and others we can tell by the cadences what instrument they were born on. Other tunes translate well enough to be multimorphus or so poorly to be distressed beyond recognition.

If however you look at the many anglo-german concertina tutors of that century...like Howe's and Segwicks in the US or Coleman's in Britain, there is the same repertoire of dance music, hundreds of dance tunes pitched in C and G.

While I haven't seen a concertina version of Howe's, I've seen quite a few 1800's concertina tutors - but at the most they had only a token couple dance tunes in them (far from the same repertoire).

 

-- Rich --

Rich,

I have copies of two of Howe's. Howe's Eclectic School for the (German) Concertina has "over 200 of the very 'Latest and Best' Songs, Polkas, Galops, Quicksteps, &c". The mix of tunes is pretty much the same as his general purpose tunebooks to which your refer.

Howe's Western German Concertina School (1879) has over 140 "Songs, Polkas, Waltzes, Marches, Quicksteps, Contra and Fancy Dances, &c". They were playing mostly dance music. Both books are lean on instructions; they give three pages of scales and then go right into the tunes, with fingerings shown for every note. All are in C and G; mostly C. Kimber's selection of keys and country dance tunes (his non-Morris repertoire) is generally in step with this mixture of material, and its keys.

Coule's 1854 tutor (London) has more instruction but still gets in about 120 tunes...a mixture of half dance music (polkas, waltzes, galops, marches, hornpipes similar to Howe's) and half songs and hymns. Same keys as for Howe's, C and G. Russell's German Concertina Tutor (also mid-19th C. London) has a similar mix and about 120 tunes, all in C.

I'm not suggesting that general purpose music groups of that era were playing a lot in C&G as opposed to G&D....far from it....but if there was a German concertina playing along, they probably were. And as Mary MacNamara says, there was once a fair amount of C playing in east Clare once too, driven by two row German concertinas (with G too of course...probably mostly G).

Once the third row was added, things changed. George Jones 1876 tutor promotes multiple keys throughout (he claimed to have been the originator of the third row, after all), and gives examples in keys ranging from three flats to three sharps. However, his example tunes are few and mostly airs. I don't think I could muster much more than air tempo for the key of Eb anyway! (To my knowledge, there wasn't another substantial tutor published for the anglo until the concertina revival; Jones' tutor was repreinted well into the 1940's.)

As far as to whether the keys in the general purpose tunebooks were 'fiddle driven' or not, you can get some indication by the numbers of instruction books carried by Howe in his 1883 music catalog. Neglecting the piano and brass band music, the numbers are as follows for general instruction books. Fiddles rule:

flute 4

clarinet 4

flageolet 3

fife 3

guitar 3

banjo 2

German accordieon 3

French accordeon 2

German concertina 3

English concertina 0

Piccolo 1

violin.......11

 

Howe does give the names of instruments included in his many band-type arrangements (for amateur orchestra; parlour orchestra; quadrille band; social orchestra; etc.). The main thing they have in common is the inclusion of violins in each (and the exclusion of concertinas in all).

I rest my case on the 'fiddle' orientation of general purpose nineteenth century tunebooks...but am happy to learn otherwise.

Cheers,

Dan

[Dave Higham]

"I'm not sure that could have Colin needed that much pestering, since the franglo, if you see Colin in sessions, is his instrument of preference (along with the serpent)."

 

Well, not to make a meal of it, but it was Colin who told me that when Manu first approached him with the idea he wasn't exactly enthused, but after being pestered for a while he thought it might be quite interesting to try and give it a go.

Edited December 11, 2006 by Dave Higham

[Richard Morse]

I have copies of two of Howe's. Howe's Eclectic School for the (German) Concertina has "over 200 of the very 'Latest and Best' Songs, Polkas, Galops, Quicksteps, &c". The mix of tunes is pretty much the same as his general purpose tunebooks to which your refer. Howe's Western German Concertina School (1879) has over 140... Coule's 1854 tutor (London) has more instruction but still gets in about 120 tunes... Russell's German Concertina Tutor (also mid-19th C. London) has a similar mix and about 120 tunes....

The Howe's I have doesn't have lessons, hymns or songs, but does have about 1000 tunes broken down into sections: English, Irish, Scottish, Contra dances (with figures), and Ethiopian (American tunes like Nelly Bly, Old Dan Tucker...).

As far as to whether the keys in the general purpose tunebooks were 'fiddle driven' or not, you can get some indication by the numbers of instruction books carried by Howe in his 1883 music catalog.

Do all those books have the same tunes in them but just written out in different keys?

 

-- Rich --

[geoffwright]

bellows straining, reeds screaming and an octave above most other instruments

Is that a description of my "Ferrari" C/G or my "E Type" Morino accordion?

[Marcus]

Does anyone know what Mary Macnamara play on Traditional Music From East Clare - it seems lower in tone that a standard C/G.

 

What exactly is a "Franglo" - do forgive my ignorance!

[Dan Worrall]

The Howe's I have doesn't have lessons, hymns or songs, but does have about 1000 tunes broken down into sections: English, Irish, Scottish, Contra dances (with figures), and Ethiopian (American tunes like Nelly Bly, Old Dan Tucker...).

As far as to whether the keys in the general purpose tunebooks were 'fiddle driven' or not, you can get some indication by the numbers of instruction books carried by Howe in his 1883 music catalog.

Do all those books have the same tunes in them but just written out in different keys?

 

-- Rich --

 

Rich,

I'm guessing you might have the Howe's tunebook newly published by Mel Bay? If so, there is another one by that publisher called Ryan's Mammoth Collection that has a nice article on ELias Howe and his publishing business. Howe started as a tune collecter, early years of the 19th C. He then began to publish his tunes, then adding instruction manuals, sheet music arrangements, etc etc. Ryan worked for him and published the same exact Howe's tunes with his (Ryan's) name on them...Howe didn't seem to care, as he sold both. Cole's did the same thing, but long after, and didn't credit Howe at all. O'Neill also borrowed freely for some individual tunes, according to folks who carefully look at the tunes. And on the concertina side, Paul Deville lifted from Howe's as well for his tutor, still in print and often found in standard music stores. Howe deserves easily as much credit as O'Neill for tune collecting... he did Irish, American, English, Scottish...almost anything.

As far as the other tutors go, I only have concertina ones. But tunes that are in C in the various concertina tutors are in G or D in the general purpose ones (like yours or the Ryans collection). Howe placed the tunes into whatever context they would sell. It is perhaps safe to say the brass band music would be in different keys than the fiddle and concertina tutors. I would imagine the accordeon tutors are in odd keys too, as the early German accordeons were also often in C.

Cheers,

Dan

[PeterT]

Does anyone know what Mary Macnamara play on Traditional Music From East Clare - it seems lower in tone that a standard C/G.

Intersting question, Marcus. I've not heard this particular album, but Mary plays a Jeffries C/G on the "Anglo International" recordings. However, looking at photographs, it appears clear that it is not the same instrument on "Traditional Music From East Clare".

 

Regards,

Peter.

[Richard Morse]

I'm guessing you might have the Howe's tunebook newly published by Mel Bay?

No, mine's from the 1800's, cloth-bound 8 3/4" x 11 1/2" landscape format, says "Published and sold by Elias Howe, 88 Court St. Boston".

I also have a Ryans from that era; a Henry Ford compilation, Robbins, and Coles (not the Mel Bay) from the early 1900's; and a set of Don Messer's from around 1950. And more current books too, of course.

Howe placed the tunes into whatever context they would sell. It is perhaps safe to say the brass band music would be in different keys than the fiddle and concertina tutors.

Hmmm... digging deeper I just found another "violin" tune book but it's missing it's cover and is in terrible shape. Tunes are in fiddle keys. Also a couple of "Preceptors" (by Howe and Ditson) for "Accordeon" though engravings show a flutina. Every one of the the tunes in them is in C with the push/pull notated.

 

The tunes seem to be in simple transposition without any regard for making them easier to play on a flutina. While fiddle to flutina isn't unduly limiting, there are many tunes that don't work well from other instruments to fiddle usually because of the tune cadences vs the fiddle fingering - regardless of the key. And then there are tunes which work both ways - lots of people I know play Fisher's in both F and D, and some that really don't - like playing Good for the Tongue in D rather than Bb. So much is impossible to play in D on the fiddle that people just alter and omit heavily. Now people learn the tune from someone playing it in D and think "that's the tune" when in reality it's a poor shadow of it's former self.

 

-- Rich --

[Chris Timson]

What exactly is a "Franglo" - do forgive my ignorance!

Look here.

 

Chris

[Dave Weinstein]

I've never quite understood the claims that the G/D couldn't be heard in a session. I play a highly modified G/D (down in the Baritone C/G range), and I find I have no difficulty being heard (even when I would prefer not to be, say, after my fingers decide that they would much rather strike the wrong buttons).

[Marcus]

So does anyone else make Franglo's or just Colin Dipper?

[mike averill]

If C instruments (anglos) are expected to play in F,G,D and A (yes, these are popular session keys in Great Britain) why cannot melodions? Isn't cross-fingering allowed?

The typical 2-row melodeon has only 2 buttons for the accidental notes rather than the 10 buttons a 30-button anglo has. With only 4 accidental notes the melodeon is fully chromatic for only part of a single octave - far too little to play most tunes in keys other than it's home keys.

 

-- Rich --

 

Only 2 accidental buttons never stops me playing in C or A on the D/G meldoian or in D and F on my 22 G/C lachenal anglo. You either miss the note or drop down the octave for a a note or two. As to "...far too little.." I went to a cajun melodian work shop with Marc Savoy a few years ago where he happily played in every key imaginable on a one row C box by just ignoring the buttons he didnt have sounded great. His wife demonstrated the fact that the guitarist only needs to play one chord too; I kid not. Rythmn makes it all work.

[Mikefule]

I have heard other musicians joking about deliberately not playing in G or D in order to upset melodeon players, but that says it all.

 

I play melodeon and harmonica. I often choose to play harmonica in C because melodeonists hunt in packs, and will ruthlessly chase and kill any D/G melody played sweetly and quietly. Many meleodeonists are melodeon operators rather than musicians. They can do tunes really really fast and loud, but they can't make nice music. This does not apply to all melodeonists, but it is definitely an observable phenomenon. The only other instrument that is so habitually ruthless is the inexpertly played bodhran.

[Paul Groff]

Only 2 accidental buttons never stops me playing in C or A on the D/G meldoian or in D and F on my 22 G/C lachenal anglo. You either miss the note or drop down the octave for a a note or two. As to "...far too little.." I went to a cajun melodian work shop with Marc Savoy a few years ago where he happily played in every key imaginable on a one row C box by just ignoring the buttons he didnt have sounded great. His wife demonstrated the fact that the guitarist only needs to play one chord too; I kid not. Rythmn makes it all work.

 

I could not agree more with this.

 

In fact I have often argued (seemingly in vain) with so-called experts on this site about how much music (an infinity, really, or at least several lifetimes' repertoires) can be made with 10 key melodeons and 20 key german or anglo concertinas. The reason is exactly as you stated -- great rhythm (and decent choices within a limited range of notes) makes great traditional music almost no matter how few different notes you have to use. Conversely, no matter how complete the chromaticism of your instrument or your setting, less than perfect rhythm results in limp music.

 

The best of the Irish 1-row melodeon players and the pre-WW2 generation of Irish anglo players made and make better music without "all the sharps and flats that you [supposedly] need" than many (most?) of today's players with fully chromatic instruments. That shows that it is a fallacy that quality Irish music requires, much less arises from, a chromatic instrument.

 

Sometimes I fear having "all the notes," combined with an overly notation-influenced or intellectual approach to the music, can actually lead to worse music than would be played by an ear player with a 10 or 20 key diatonic instrument.

 

Now, if you want to play Joplin rags, bebop, or Mozart these styles need a lot of notes. But on this site so much of the time it is the Irish music beginners who complain so bitterly of the cost or availability of 3 row anglos -- when all the time the lovely recordings of Mrs. Crotty, John Kelly, Kitty Hayes and many more demonstrate the way great music can be played with far fewer notes available.

 

Paul

[Chris Timson]

when all the time the lovely recordings of Mrs. Crotty, John Kelly, Kitty Hayes and many more demonstrate the way great music can be played with far fewer notes available.

Add William Kimber to that list. It's all just as true of English music.

 

Chris

[Phantom Button]

It's true that great music can be played on the 2-row instruments, and if that's the style you want to pursue... go for it. But the vast majority of top-notch players today are playing 3-row C/G instruments. If you endeavor to play in that style, that's the concertina you'll need. It's all a matter of what style of music you wish to play.