Tuning Again

[m3838]

I'm considering an order of reasonable accordion reeded English concertina.

Currently I'm working with loaned Jack and I like the layout, the portability, the universality, the inability to

play Oom-pa (I need this restriction, Oom-pa is my middle name), but I don't like the intervals on the Jack, and I suppose the problem is in equal tuning(?).

Thank you Chris Alert for putting it down for me in such a simple and understandable way, but now I wonder, what and whether I should ask to alter my new EC's tuning?

Let's see:

I'm not going to play in any group (not that I wouldn't like, but at present it appears impossible),

I would like to play classical european music mostly, some Russian folk and contemporary.

No English or Irish, perhabs some French, but as it appears now, classical or classically arranged pieces end up being played on the Jack I have.

For true folk stuff I have Hohner Pokerworks in G/C, C/F, A/D and Club in C/F. Enough is enough.

I also have my 20 button chromatized, but for true folk style I can de-chormatize it, if I wanted.

 

So with regards to above, what would you suggest in terms of tuning? Equal tuning is just plain wrong, very few chords sound right to my ears, and many of the intervals, G-B, or F-A/F#-A are so bad, it makes me cringe. I'd like to order it in just tuning, but realize that perhabs it will limit my keys.

I noticed that most of the arrangements I have so far (after 5 years of CBA learning) are in F, C,Cmin, G, D,

Amin. Rarely a Bb. In these keys what would be a good compromise for altered tuning, if any?

I'd like to also request that those sharps not be the same as flats, would that be enough?

 

Unfortunately in great many mp3s that I heard, harmonies on EC do sound like a bunch of sea lions and it makes me nervous.

 

Where can I see easy read diagrams of just vs. equal tuning?

Oh yeas, this new EC of mine is likely to be a baritone, trebbles are way too shrill for me.

Thanks.

[Larry Stout]

I'm interested in answers here as well. I'll soon be sending my circa 1850 baritone EC off to get (among other things) tuned. One possibiliity is meantone (so the Ab and G# differ, among other things). From what I've read that might make the thirds sound better and the fifths a bit worse. I will probably not be playing this instrument in a session (it is quite mellow and soft, hard to hear in a noisy bar) so I'l probably be playing it in my study, solo. I've looked at the old threads on temperament and can't quite decide what to do.

[The Curmudgeon]

I would just stick with equal temperment. It is what most musicians use, so if you ever end up plaing alongside a piano etc., you are going to sound a lot better together. I recently sat in with my EC on an eight piece band of mostly professional musicians for a concert performance, and none of them made any complaint about my equal temperment tuning (I was the only amateur, and I was given an all around positive response). However, when my part was arranged, the band leader and I took some of the concertina's limitations into account.

 

One limitation is that a standard three note major chord (1-3-5) always seems to sound a bit out of kilter. To my memory there is a writeup on the concertina-connections website about why this is the case. To get around this problem you should get used to inverted chords and start figuring out which ones are appropriate where. (however I still use regular non-inverted chords, if I feel they are well suited). Also, it is in the higher register where I notice most the unpleasant beats in chords, so the burden of my polyphonic playing is held by the central area of the keyboard.

 

Even in the English concertina's prime, the mean tone system was criticised, notably by Hector Berlioz. You can read this in Atlas' book "The Wheatstone Concertina in Victorian England" starting on page 39.

 

I tuned my own English concertina when I bought it. I have had previous experience tuning free reeds, and I used a very good quality chromatic tuner. I feel I would be very hard pressed to take on an mean-tone tuning job and do it reliably. Even if I was successful, I imagine that I would still have to grapple with harmonics clashing somewhere, and I would just end up accomodating to a different set of challenges.

[m3838]

I would just stick with equal temperment.

 

Thanks for great post. Very interesting and alot to think about.

You probably right.

Those one row cajun players got it easy.

[Tootler]

All tuning systems involve some sort of compromise.

 

Meantone tuning generally aims for "pure" thirds while the fifths are slightly "out" - that is you can hear beating when you sound an interval of a fifth. This will only work for a limited number of intervals so you are only really in tune in a limited number of keys. Traditionally instruments were tuned to be in tune in the key of C and the meantone system generally meant you would also be in tune up to two sharps or flats. Outside of that you begin to get problems. So you get nice sounding chords in a limited number of keys and horrible ones in the remaining keys. I once heard a demonstration on a keyboard tuned to quarter comma meantone. G major sounded lovely but Ab major (Just one semitone up) was a horrible clashing discord. The effect was quite striking.

 

Equal temperament tunes all fifths to be equally out, so all chords end up being slightly out - they beat when you sound them. All chords give the same effect in all keys, but you can play in any key you wish. Also because all intervals are the same, G# and Ab are the same are are D# and Eb etc. With meantone temperament, you will have to choose whether to have G# or Ab, D# or Eb and so on unless you wish to add a lot more reeds and buttons to your 'tina.

 

Which you go for is up to you.

 

A very useful site for music theory is Dolmetsch Recorder Website. The link takes you to the section on meantone and equal temperament. There is also a lot more interesting material on pitch and temperament on that page.

 

Geoff

[Theodore Kloba]

So with regards to above, what would you suggest in terms of tuning?

If I were in your position I might try Brad Lehman's reconstructed Bach* tuning detailed at larips.com. I've already decided that should I embark on tuning my smallest bandonion (old and out of tune), I would try this temperament. Even if you don't try it on your EC, the website is very interesting.

 

*Whether this was truly the tuning Bach intended for his Well-Tempered Clavier is of course disputed.

[m3838]

So with regards to above, what would you suggest in terms of tuning?

If I were in your position I might try Brad Lehman's reconstructed Bach* tuning detailed at larips.com. I've already decided that should I embark on tuning my smallest bandonion (old and out of tune), I would try this temperament. Even if you don't try it on your EC, the website is very interesting.

 

*Whether this was truly the tuning Bach intended for his Well-Tempered Clavier is of course disputed.

 

I'll read later, no time now. But from my glimpse it looks very interesting.

I actually believe that the simplest cue is the truest, so Lehman's idea is probably correct. Interesting would be to hear it.

[m3838]

Since there is no real good search tool here, let me ask this quesion again:

What is a good tutor/tune/arrangement book+CD for English concertina?

Online is good, books to order are good too.

I think I'm slightly over the beginner's stage and am interested in polyphonic arrangements.

 

Thanks.

[Samantha]

Since there is no real good search tool here, let me ask this quesion again:

What is a good tutor/tune/arrangement book+CD for English concertina?

Online is good, books to order are good too.

I think I'm slightly over the beginner's stage and am interested in polyphonic arrangements.

 

Thanks.

Have you already looked at the learning resources page of c.net at http://www.concertina.net/learning.htm? I can't evaluate what's there as I'm an anglo player, but it should be a start ...

Samantha

[Anthony Cipolone]

If you're up for it, try Bach's sonatas and partitas for solo violin since you're looking for something a little more complex. They're fairly complicated pieces, and if you can get through them it'll be some nice "show off" pieces to play.

 

You can hear these pieces played here, but they're transposed a fifth and on a cello, so "playing along" wouldn't work. You can listen to MIDI here in the correct key, but ... well, they're MIDI. I'm sure the Naxos label has a recording out there of them on violin, and those CDs are typically pretty cheap (around $7). I've been working through the beginning of the Allegro section of the 2nd Violin Sonata (page 19) since it's basically just going back and forth between A minor and E major.

 

You can also try some of Bach's two-part inventions. They won't fit the range of the instrument, but maybe you could do some sort of arrangement?

 

Of course, there's always the music that was written specifically for the concertina. Blagrove, Regondi, etc ... those are just way beyond anything I can handle right now, though. I'll post more of whatever I come across, though.

[allan atlas]

DEAR m3838: the first thing to decide is just what music you'll be playing and with whom you'll be playing it. . . . .if you're with a piano, i'm not sure a meantone instrument is the best choice: you and the piano will never agree on the G#/Ab or D#/Eb complex. . . . .you'll be OK in a few keys. . . .but then the going gets a bit ragged. . . . . .

 

a nice compromise is one that i had done by Wim Wakker a few years ago. . . . .we re-tuned an 1860s treble to Thomas Young's so-called "well"-temperament No. 1. . . . .which he outlined in 1801. . . . .it was based on an earlier tuning (late 18th-c) by Vallotti. . . . . .it works as follows:

 

(1) the major third C - E = 392 cents (in equal temp a major third is 400 cents)

 

(2) the major thirds grow in size as one goes about the circle of fifths in BOTH directions. . . .and they grow symmetrically. . . .thus: the major third G - B = F - A; D - F# = Bb - D. . . .and so forth until you arrive at

 

(3) F# - A# (= Gb- Bb) = 408 cents

 

now, the instrument that i had so tuned has become my "regular" instrument. . . . .i play it against the piano. . . .and i do so in a wide range of keys. . . .and no one has ever said that the concertina is out of tune. . . .on the other hand, it permits each key (actually pairs of keys) to have a slightly different character. . . . . .thus as the major thirds get wider, the keys sound somewhat more brilliant, sparkling, call it what you will. . . . . . .

 

if it's some reading you want to do, the following will get you started:

 

Owen Jorgensen, TUNING: CONTAINING THE PERFECTION OF EIGHTEENTH-CENTURY TEMPERAMENT. . .(Michigan State U. Press, 1991)

 

Thomas Donahue, A GUIDE TO MUSICAL TEMPERAMENT (Scarecrow Press, 2005)

 

two very interesting articles on the pairing of instruments tuned to different temperaments:

 

J.H. Chestnut, "Mozart's Teaching of Intonation," JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN MUSICOLOGICAL SOCIETY, 30 (1977)

 

David Boyden, "Prelleur, Geminiani, and Just Intonation," IBID., 4 (1951)

 

and it's not just a matter of inverting chords on the Eng Conc. . . . .you're also better off playing them in "open" position. . . . .thus if you want to play a C-major chord in root position. . . . .instead of playing

C - E - G. . . .try C - G - E (with the E a tenth above the C). . . . .tends to sound better that way. . . .and i'd certainly keep away from closed position chords in the upper register. . . .UNBEARABLE............allan