Repairing An Old Maccann Duet

[HelenG]

Hi everyone - I've just bought an old brass reeded Maccann Duet from Chris Algar to do up, and am not sure where to start - do I start with bellows, which need a bit of TLC - I think they need new top runs throughout, and possibly other bits and pieces, although the insides seem OK. Its outside coners are mostly damaged to some extent - but so would mine be if I was 100 years old! Can I get away with patching them all, or do I do the whole thing - if I , do I have to take the old top run off first, would it make a better job if I did or would it weaken it? It needs new valves and pads obviously - the pads seem to be joined directly onto the leather beads? no smaller discs between them, so do I put the new ones on in the same way? Can I take the red leather baffles off and clean them as they are filthy? I've been using a stiffish paintbrush to clean the insides of the action box because it had a bit of soot in it, is this OK - it's the only thing I can use to get between the bits and pieces in there, or is there a better way without taking everything off and starting again, which I'm not about to do! The reeds seem great - they don't seem to have been touched to any great extent, even though there are 2 steel ones in there that are a bit rusty - they also seem to be roughly in tune at the moment, although I know they're likely to change a bit when cleaned etc. I thought that the springs were OK but I think that one's gone now, so should I replace all of them? I've had a lot of helpful advice from Pete and Chris, and I'm not going to start the task immediately, but any suggestions would be gratefully received.

Edited October 29, 2006 by HelenG

[Paul Read]

Hi everyone - I've just bought an old brass reeded Maccann Duet from Chris Algar to do up, and am not sure where to start - do I start with bellows, which need a bit of TLC - I think they need new top runs throughout, and possibly other bits and pieces, although the insides seem OK. Its outside coners are mostly damaged to some extent - but so would mine be if I was 100 years old! Can I get away with patching them all, or do I do the whole thing - if I , do I have to take the old top run off first, would it make a better job if I did or would it weaken it? It needs new valves and pads obviously - the pads seem to be joined directly onto the leather beads? no smaller discs between them, so do I put the new ones on in the same way? Can I take the red leather baffles off and clean them as they are filthy? I've been using a stiffish paintbrush to clean the insides of the action box because it had a bit of soot in it, is this OK - it's the only thing I can use to get between the bits and pieces in there, or is there a better way without taking everything off and starting again, which I'm not about to do! The reeds seem great - they don't seem to have been touched to any great extent, even though there are 2 steel ones in there that are a bit rusty - they also seem to be roughly in tune at the moment, although I know they're likely to change a bit when cleaned etc. I thought that the springs were OK but I think that one's gone now, so should I replace all of them? I've had a lot of helpful advice from Pete and Chris, and I'm not going to start the task immediately, but any suggestions would be gratefully received.

Hi Helen,

 

I suggest you get Dave Elliott's concertina repair manual and read it through before you start. This will answer many of your questions. You will likely need to come back to this forum for individual issues.

Good Luck

Edited October 29, 2006 by Paul Read

[OLDNICKILBY]

Hi everyone - I've just bought an old brass reeded Maccann Duet from Chris Algar to do up, and am not sure where to start - do I start with bellows, which need a bit of TLC - I think they need new top runs throughout, and possibly other bits and pieces, although the insides seem OK. Its outside coners are mostly damaged to some extent - but so would mine be if I was 100 years old! Can I get away with patching them all, or do I do the whole thing - if I , do I have to take the old top run off first, would it make a better job if I did or would it weaken it? It needs new valves and pads obviously - the pads seem to be joined directly onto the leather beads? no smaller discs between them, so do I put the new ones on in the same way? Can I take the red leather baffles off and clean them as they are filthy? I've been using a stiffish paintbrush to clean the insides of the action box because it had a bit of soot in it, is this OK - it's the only thing I can use to get between the bits and pieces in there, or is there a better way without taking everything off and starting again, which I'm not about to do! The reeds seem great - they don't seem to have been touched to any great extent, even though there are 2 steel ones in there that are a bit rusty - they also seem to be roughly in tune at the moment, although I know they're likely to change a bit when cleaned etc. I thought that the springs were OK but I think that one's gone now, so should I replace all of them? I've had a lot of helpful advice from Pete and Chris, and I'm not going to start the task immediately, but any suggestions would be gratefully received.

Hi Helen,

 

I suggest you get Dave Elliott's concertina repair manual and read it through before you start. This will answer many of your questions. You will likely need to come back to this forum for individual issues.

Good Luck

[DavidFR]

It needs new valves and pads obviously - the pads seem to be joined directly onto the leather beads? no smaller discs between them, so do I put the new ones on in the same way?

I'm working on my own project - a brass-reeded English tutor - which will probably be pretty dreadful when finished, but I'm having great fun working on it and am learning lots.

 

Every single pad needed replacing, and I got some from the button box (thanks Doug!) to replace them with. Then I went to replace them (using Dave Elliot's book) and noticed that I didn't have any of those smaller disks to put between the pad and the bead. Had a look at my good instrument and noticed it didn't seem to have those either, so, what the hell - I just went ahead and glued the pads directly to the bead!

 

I'm using liquid hide glue (which took me a while to find), and making sure to scrape as much of the old glue off the bead/arm as I can. I may be using too much glue, but it's creating a very strong and stable bond as far as I can tell, so I don't think you really need those little bits. One thing - I'd suggest attaching the pad with the arm and button in place so that the pad is correctly aligned over the hole. The hide glue is tacky enough but stays dry long enough to put some on the pad and wiggle it around in place to make sure everything lines up.

 

I'm sure the more experienced (at all experienced!) people will have more and better suggestions as well. Good luck!

 

-David

[Theo]

I may be using too much glue, but it's creating a very strong and stable bond as far as I can tell, so I don't think you really need those little bits.

The "little bits" of leather are there so that the bond is slightly flexible which allows the pad to remain airtight if there are slight changes in the geometry of the arm, for example as the felt compacts over the life of the pad.

 

One thing - I'd suggest attaching the pad with the arm and button in place so that the pad is correctly aligned over the hole.

 

That is the only way to do it!

[DavidFR]

The "little bits" of leather are there so that the bond is slightly flexible which allows the pad to remain airtight if there are slight changes in the geometry of the arm, for example as the felt compacts over the life of the pad.

Oh. Well that's a shame to be finding out at this point. I just took what was given me and pressed on. I don't think I can go back and fix it now.

[Paul Read]

The "little bits" of leather are there so that the bond is slightly flexible which allows the pad to remain airtight if there are slight changes in the geometry of the arm, for example as the felt compacts over the life of the pad.

Oh. Well that's a shame to be finding out at this point. I just took what was given me and pressed on. I don't think I can go back and fix it now.

David,

 

If you used hide glue you may be able to remove it as it is water soluble. You'll need to be careful though. In my opinion, it is probably worth correcting.

[d.elliott]

The "little bits" of leather are there so that the bond is slightly flexible which allows the pad to remain airtight if there are slight changes in the geometry of the arm, for example as the felt compacts over the life of the pad.

Oh. Well that's a shame to be finding out at this point. I just took what was given me and pressed on. I don't think I can go back and fix it now.

 

There is a right way and a, well - not so right way to do most jobs. I don't think that the original makers spent so much time and money stamping out and fixing the pad 'dots' for the fun of it, do you.

 

The dot has two contributions:

 

it provides flexibility as previously mentioned, and it gives a larger leather to card glueing area, which reduces the probability of the pad coming adrift from the lever arm.

 

I would suggest that the ommission be fixed. I don't know your liquid hide glue, is there a UK equivalent? anyone?

 

Dave

[Alex West]

I don't know your liquid hide glue, is there a UK equivalent? anyone?

 

Dave

 

 

I got a liquid hide glue called "Titebond" from Axminster in the UK. It seems fine for all sorts of concertina purposes but it is hygroscopic and it remains tacky now for a long time where it would set hard when it was fresh

 

Alex

[Richard Morse]

I would suggest that the ommission be fixed. I don't know your liquid hide glue, is there a UK equivalent? anyone?

We don't use hide glue for this joint as the typical hide glue (such as the prepared - already constituted, not fresh-made from flakes) stuff has a long set time and cures to be fairly brittle. Typical carpenter's "yellow" glue (a type of PVA) will work much better.

 

-- Rich --

[DavidFR]

Typical carpenter's "yellow" glue (a type of PVA) will work much better.

What precisely is PVA glue? It's mentioned repeatedly in the Elliot book, but I've never heard of it and have no idea what it is or what PVA means.

 

I used the hide glue because it was recommended to me for repairing cracks in the fretwork etc and the information I can find online appears to indicate that the original concertina makers used hide glue throughout.

 

I'm not sure that I can go back now and fix this, as I've done over 2/3 of the repadding and I don't think I can take the pads off without damaging them.

[David Barnert]

What precisely is PVA glue? It's mentioned repeatedly in the Elliot book, but I've never heard of it and have no idea what it is or what PVA means.

Polyvinyl Acetate. Your basic white crafts glue. Best known example in the USA is Elmer's.

[Dave Prebble]

What precisely is PVA glue? It's mentioned repeatedly in the Elliot book, but I've never heard of it and have no idea what it is or what PVA means.

Polyvinyl Acetate. Your basic white crafts glue. Best known example in the USA is Elmer's.

 

My preference is Titebond Liquid Hide for this job. Unlike the traditional hot hide glues, I find it doesn't get brittle with age.

 

PVA Glue (Evo-Stick Resin W is easy to find in UK) ... does the job fine but most grades of PVA set quite hard and are fairly water resistant so do bear in mind that, the next time the instrument needs re-padding, you (or someone else) may well have to replace the leather spuds that go on the end of the lever arms.

 

Regards

 

Dave

 

Dave FR - Two ' t's ' in Elliott or he'll send the boys round to bust your knees !!

[d.elliott]

What precisely is PVA glue? It's mentioned repeatedly in the Elliot book, but I've never heard of it and have no idea what it is or what PVA means.

Polyvinyl Acetate. Your basic white crafts glue. Best known example in the USA is Elmer's.

 

My preference is Titebond Liquid Hide for this job. Unlike the traditional hot hide glues, I find it doesn't get brittle with age.

 

PVA Glue (Evo-Stick Resin W is easy to find in UK) ... does the job fine but most grades of PVA set quite hard and are fairly water resistant so do bear in mind that, the next time the instrument needs re-padding, you (or someone else) may well have to replace the leather spuds that go on the end of the lever arms.

 

Regards

 

Dave

 

Dave FR - Two ' t's ' in Elliott or he'll send the boys round to bust your knees !!

 

 

This is 2T's speaking! I only bust knees on dancers, its index fingers on Anglo players, and thumbs on English system players. One just cannot get the staff these days (Prebbs)

 

Back to glue! I raised the question on 'liquid hide glue', wondering if this commercial preparation was a synthetic or an actual form of the original animal glue that we all know, and hate the smell of. Does the tritebond have a shelf life once opened? Most concertina jobs use so little glue that it can become very wasteful, even for people like me who are constantly repairing.

 

I think I feel a new thread coming on, glues!

 

Dave

[David Barnert]

What precisely is PVA glue? It's mentioned repeatedly in the Elliot book, but I've never heard of it and have no idea what it is or what PVA means.

Polyvinyl Acetate. Your basic white crafts glue. Best known example in the USA is Elmer's.

My preference is Titebond Liquid Hide for this job. Unlike the traditional hot hide glues, I find it doesn't get brittle with age.

 

PVA Glue (Evo-Stick Resin W is easy to find in UK) ... does the job fine but most grades of PVA set quite hard and are fairly water resistant so do bear in mind that, the next time the instrument needs re-padding, you (or someone else) may well have to replace the leather spuds that go on the end of the lever arms.

I was answering the question ("What precisely is PVA glue?"), not making a product endorsement.

[DavidFR]

My preference is Titebond Liquid Hide for this job. Unlike the traditional hot hide glues, I find it doesn't get brittle with age.

That's precisely what I'm using. I don't think it's a synthetic but I could be wrong - it does smell pretty bad. The nice thing is it's very easy to regulate how much comes out. If I do decide to go back and put in those reinforcing disks, what is the best way to undo that bond without damaging the pads?

 

Dave FR - Two ' t's ' in Elliott or he'll send the boys round to bust your knees !!

My apologies to Dave Elliott! Us Davids/Daves need to stick together anyway. I definitely appreciate your repair manual by the way. Excellent resource for us all.

[Theo]

Titebond Liquid Hide Glue is a chemically modified hide glue that remains liquid at room temperature. Being chemically modified its likely to have some different characteristics from ordinary hide glue.

[Paul Read]

Typical carpenter's "yellow" glue (a type of PVA) will work much better.

What precisely is PVA glue? It's mentioned repeatedly in the Elliot book, but I've never heard of it and have no idea what it is or what PVA means.

 

I used the hide glue because it was recommended to me for repairing cracks in the fretwork etc and the information I can find online appears to indicate that the original concertina makers used hide glue throughout.

 

I'm not sure that I can go back now and fix this, as I've done over 2/3 of the repadding and I don't think I can take the pads off without damaging them.

Liquid hide glue is great for pads and valves because it is reversable. I wouldn't use it on wood or leather work. For this I would use PVA glue.

 

Dave, If I were you I'd re-do the valves. A bit of work now but a long-term result.