What's Your Ltd?

[Jody Kruskal]

Yesterday I posted an exercise in Larryo’s learning air button control topic. Part of that exercise involved seeing how long you could play a single tone.

 

It struck me that one of the things I listen for in evaluating the quality of a concertina is the instruments dynamic range. Part of that is not how loudly it plays but rather how quietly it can play before the reeds refuse to speak. Here is one easy way to quantify that along with general leakiness and get a sense of one aspect of quality in a prospective instrument.

 

The test:

 

With the bellows fully compressed, play a long, very quiet, tone until the bellows is fully extended. On a C/G use the right hand middle row, index finger b/c button. Listen to your tone and try to make it as quiet and even in volume as you can. Can you play quietly enough to get 20 seconds in duration? 30? 40? more? Play as long and as quietly as possible for this exercise. Try the same thing on the push.

 

My Jefferies G/D will play that button (f#/ g) for about 90 seconds. My highest note played for over 150 seconds. My Italian Bastari (like a Stagi) in fair condition will play for about 25 seconds.

 

If a number of us post our durations then that could help calibrate an LTD, or longest tone duration figure to compare any instrument to. Any suggestions on how to set this up? Or if it would be useful at all?

[ragtimer]

With the bellows fully compressed, play a long, very quiet, tone until the bellows is fully extended. On a C/G use the right hand middle row, index finger b/c button. Listen to your tone and try to make it as quiet and even in volume as you can. Can you play quietly enough to get 20 seconds in duration? 30? 40? more? Play as long and as quietly as possible for this exercise. Try the same thing on the push.

 

My Jefferies G/D will play that button (f#/ g) for about 90 seconds. My highest note played for over 150 seconds. My Italian Bastari (like a Stagi) in fair condition will play for about 25 seconds.

 

If a number of us post our durations then that could help calibrate an LTD, or longest tone duration figure to compare any instrument to. Any suggestions on how to set this up? Or if it would be useful at all?

Hi Jody. On my 2-year-old Stagia Hayden Duet, I was able to get 60 seconds on the push, using the RH C above Middle C. Maybe middle C (bottom left button) would be a fairer comparison with the Anglo?

 

Unless you use a really low-pitched air-hog reed, this is as much a test of bellows leakage as it is of reed quality or your playing technique. But I think it's a useful measure of overall 'tina quality, and a great practice exercise. You can practice meditative slow breathing during the test

 

BTW, if you the "drop test" for bellows integrity with my Stagi, but hold down a note or two, the weight of the other end is enough that it plays pretty loud. So during your exercise, one must push or pull with a lot less force than the weight of one end. Good discipline. Your LTD result could be longer than your drop-test (with no buttons pressed) timing.

--Mike Knudsen

[Guest Mick Diles]

Yesterday I posted an exercise in Larryo’s learning air button control topic. Part of that exercise involved seeing how long you could play a single tone.

 

It struck me that one of the things I listen for in evaluating the quality of a concertina is the instruments dynamic range. Part of that is not how loudly it plays but rather how quietly it can play before the reeds refuse to speak. Here is one easy way to quantify that along with general leakiness and get a sense of one aspect of quality in a prospective instrument.

 

The test:

 

With the bellows fully compressed, play a long, very quiet, tone until the bellows is fully extended. On a C/G use the right hand middle row, index finger b/c button. Listen to your tone and try to make it as quiet and even in volume as you can. Can you play quietly enough to get 20 seconds in duration? 30? 40? more? Play as long and as quietly as possible for this exercise. Try the same thing on the push.

 

My Jefferies G/D will play that button (f#/ g) for about 90 seconds. My highest note played for over 150 seconds. My Italian Bastari (like a Stagi) in fair condition will play for about 25 seconds.

 

If a number of us post our durations then that could help calibrate an LTD, or longest tone duration figure to compare any instrument to. Any suggestions on how to set this up? Or if it would be useful at all?

Jody

 

This looks like a very interesting test. However it should be "standardized" for:

1. the volume of the belows (6 fold vs. 7 fold etc.)
   
2. the "experience" of the player
   

In fact you should measure the air-flow (liter/minute) needed to make a reed "speak".

BTW: I measured 2 minutes 45 seconds for my index finger on the right hand middle row of my C/G concertina

[Theodore Kloba]

FWIW, I tried this out on my 1949 Alfred Arnold bandonion. I used button #5 which is in the home (A) row and has the leading tone/tonic combination of G#/A. I played G# for 97 seconds.

 

In terms of dynamic range, it might be interesting to take some relative measurements by recording and analyzing the sound, e.g. attach a clip-on microphone (so distance doesn't change with bellows movement) and record first playing as quietly as possible without the reed stopping, and then as loudly as safely possible. Analyze each test tone for RMS power or some other relative loundess approximation and look at the difference between the two. Of course you have to use a microphone that can handle the sound pressure level of the fff playing and doesn't lose the ppp playing below the noise floor.

[PeterT]

My Jefferies G/D will play that button (f#/ g) for about 90 seconds.

Hi Jody,

 

There is another factor which we need to consider; the age (or newness) of the bellows.

 

My results are as follows:

 

Dipper C/G (octagonal, 7 fold)

Bellows opening - 90 seconds

Bellows closing - 190 seconds

Bellows are 7 years old, and I was struggling to expand them fully.

 

Wheatstone C/G (hexagonal 6 fold)

Bellows opening - 45 seconds

Bellows closing - 60 seconds

Bellows are 16 years old.

 

Regards,

Peter.

[Larry Stout]

My results on the concertinas I have handy, several with very old bellows: Playing an A on the EC's on the pull:

 

Wheatstone EC, 4 fold bellows, original from 1851: 35 seconds

Wheatstone EC, 5 fold bellows, original (I think) from 1913: 60 seconds

Wheatstone Baritone EC, 5 fold bellows, original from circa 1850: 59 sec.

Stagi EC, six fold bellows, dating from about 2000: 15 seconds

Scholer or perhaps Klingenthal 20 button Anglo 8 fold bellows: 60 seconds

 

I'm not great at doing this test-- I don't usually need to get that much time out of the bellows when playing. Indeed, the 1851 Wheatstone is quite playable even though it gets to full extension rather quickly. This may help explain why I find the Stagi harder to play than the others, though! I was surprized at how long the Scholer's bellows would drive the reed--perhaps having all those extra, though shallow, folds gives some extra air.

[Boney]

My C/G Wakker Anglo is just a few months old, and has 7 folds in the "extra light bellows" style. It can play so quietly I have to put my ear next to the right end to hear a faint pitch. It's hard to keep it that quiet, though. And the reed won't start at that low pressure, it need to be quite a bit louder to start crisply. I tried a few times, keeping the volume from getting too whisper-quiet, and got these numbers:

 

Opening: 115 seconds

Closing: 105 seconds

[Jody Kruskal]

Thank you all for your test results and comments. I like this measurement index in that it:

 

• comes up with an actual number

• measures a number of factors that contribute to quality including bellows volume, leakiness, reed efficiency.

• requires no special equipment like microphones, DB meters etc.

 

Along with that are many shortcomings. I’m pretty sure that low pitched reeds require more air than high pitches. Every reed is it’s own little instrument and there might be great variation in LTD between reeds in any one concertina.

 

Regardless, I’ve often thought, when playing some unfamiliar concertina, that the depth of quietness possible counts for a great deal in it’s ability to make music meaningful. Dynamic range is the main expressive element on the concertina and the wider the range the more expression you can put into your music. Most concertinas play loud OK, but quiet seems to be more limited.

[geoffwright]

7 fold Jeffries C/G

75 secs pull

90 secs push

[ragtimer]

I was suprised at what I got out of the lowest note on my 2-year-old Stagi Hayden, the LH low C --

60 seconds, more or less.

 

BTW, once you get a reed started, especially a low one, it takes a lot less air to keep it sounding, but I think Jody already mentioned that.

--Mike K.

[Henrik Müller]

...

My Italian Bastari (like a Stagi) in fair condition will play for about 25 seconds

...

Oh, I am sure I can beat that with my Stagi miniature - probably less than 10 sec

 

/Henrik

[ragtimer]

Along with that are many shortcomings. I’m pretty sure that low pitched reeds require more air than high pitches. Every reed is it’s own little instrument and there might be great variation in LTD between reeds in any one concertina.

Maybe the LTD would be a good measure of how evenly "voiced" are the reeds in an instrument:

Measure the LTD for every reed in the 'tina, plot the results versus pitch on an ascending scale. You should get a straight or gently curving line, from the low notes to the top notes. Or just list them in ascending note order and eyeball the numbers

 

Any reed whose LTD time sticks out as lower than its neighbors, probably should get some attention, since it may be a balky reed or one that's hard to play softly.

 

I can just see potential sellers of instruments sitting around drumming their fingers while a possible buyer runs this rather time-consuming test on an instrument. But seriously, it's something we could all try at home, instead of practicing

[Leo]

Jody

 

If it helps, my Morse Albion (Bought in April) seems to be about 35 seconds on any note on average. Least time is 30 seconds (lowest note) longest is 40 (highest note) with a straight line variation between. I don't know if it helps, but I'm kind of hard of hearing. Some I can feel in my hands vibrating more than hearing them. You're right! It's an exercise to keep a sound constant. Haven't tried it before but worth practicing.

 

Thanks

Leo

Edited October 21, 2006 by Leo

[David Barnert]

I've tried eight of these, now. I have two 46-key Hayden Duets (a Wheatstone and a Bastari). I tried each of them on middle C (bottom button on the right hand) and the G above that, and I did each of these trials twice to see how consistent they are. I found remarkable consistency doing the same note on the same instrument twice, but no other useful patterns.

			  1st try | 2nd try
Wheatstone C   42 sec | 39 sec
Bastari	C   40 sec | 42 sec
Wheatstone G   60 sec | 65 sec
Bastari	G   28 sec | 34 sec

So all the C's on both instruments were about 40 seconds, while the Wheatstone G's were about 60 seconds and the Bastari G's were about 30 seconds.

[Richard Morse]

An interesting and useful exercise. Quite a surprise too. My Dickinson Wheatstone Hayden (6 1/4" hex, 7 folds bellows, 20 years old) was all over the place. There was so much variation that I wound up trying many keys though the overall pattern is pretty consistant with the lowest notes (starting at the C below MC) sounding the shortest to the highest notes (that had valves) sounding progressively longer. The highest notes on my box don't have vavles, and at low volume I can readilly hear air leaking past the opposite reed. Those notes sounded almost as short as the lowest notes.

 

C below MC....... 54 seconds

Middle C.......... 103

C above MC..... 106

w/o valves........ 57

 

Most of the time the push/pull notes were within a few seconds of each other though about 20% of the time I got notes of appreciably shorter duration (only 35 seconds!) and about 5% of the notes were considerably longer (up to 85 seconds). One thing I've noticed is that reeds with the best set tended to sound the longest. It was easy to find those as I'd hold down any two notes and gently play until one sounded first. Then repeat with that note against another... until I got a "map" of all my best responding reeds - and they all turned out the be the longest playing ones.

 

While I've realized for years that my box isn't in the greatest shape I think I'm going have the guys at the shop check it over and reset all the reeds as well as check the ones with extreme short/long duration for tip and side clearances to see if there's any obvious duration correlation.

[hjcjones]

On my 30-year old Crabb C/G (6-fold bellows) I got 50 seconds on the pull and 60 on the push. I feel I could probably improve both times if I were to practice playing really quietly, as I'm sure my technique or lack of it is a factor.

 

It was interesting how much of a kick was needed to get the reed started, once it was going I could reduce it until it was barely audible, but it needed quite a bit of airflow to begin with. Not normally a problem as I have a fairly vigourous style of playing.

[John Adey]

This is all very fascinating, but it reminds me of how we used to see who could pee highest up the wall when we were kids.

 

Anyone want to play some music?

 

John

[PeterT]

Anyone want to play some music?

I thought that you were about to start another thread!

 

I'm sure that we do all play a little music in between times. Still all work and no play......

 

Regards,

Peter.