slatteryj Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 I have a question regarding assessing the quality of concertinas. There are so many assumptions made about certain types of instruments. Does having coarse fretwork on a Jeffries or Wheatstone Linota mean that the quality of the reeds, sound or action is inferior to those same makes with highly ornate fretwork. Is it possibe that the reeds and mechanisms are identical but just with plain ends? If this is correct, why would they put a cheaper end on a premium instrument? Or could it mean that some Jeffries or Linotas were made to lesser specifications throught the instrument. Hmmm J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goran rahm Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 J:"Does having coarse fretwork on a Jeffries or Wheatstone Linota mean that the quality of the reeds, sound or action is inferior to those same makes with highly ornate fretwork." Goran:Not necessarily....:-) J:"Is it possibe that the reeds and mechanisms are identical but just with plain ends?" Goran:That certainly happens with older instruments (like Jeffries) ..I'm a bit sceptical regarding Linota...are there any with elaborate fretworks...? J:" If this is correct, why would they put a cheaper end on a premium instrument?" Goran:Well... 1) Cost could be one understandable reason assuming that the buyer is not interested in the possible tonal effects from the ends. 2) A 'cheaper' (= more straightforward and usually more open) fretwork has less influence on sound...both allowing greater loudness and 'brighter' (more 'reedy') tone. Both loudness and 'brightness' (I would say roughness...) have been wanted for example among Anglo players particularly when playing outdoors. I have come across quite a few (special order) instruments with 'top of the line' reedworks and mechanical outfit within a mediocre 'box'...and also some with the reverse...all possible external luxury features and a 'cheap line' interior...I guess having been ordered by someone wanting a prestige object for the mantelpiece but not much interested in making music with it. J:"Or could it mean that some Jeffries or Linotas were made to lesser specifications throught the instrument." Goran:Generally speaking this has been quite common....do have a look at old catalogue price lists. The fact that top line instruments may have costed 5-10 times as much as cheap line ones demonstrates some of it Goran Rahm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 Does having coarse fretwork on a Jeffries or Wheatstone Linota mean that the quality of the reeds, sound or action is inferior to those same makes with highly ornate fretwork. My response here is based on a very small sample, but for what it's worth... I own a decent metal-ended 38 button Jeffries, but I used to own a wooden-ended 26-button Jeffires with very coarse fretwork, as in the following picture:- (the others are a Morse and a Herrington, all G/Ds). The 38-button was clearly superior, but the 26 button was still very good, especially after it had been bushed for me by Colin Dipper. The reeds and the rivetted action appear to have been standard Jeffries in both. I would imagine it would have actually been more expensive to maintain two qualities of components such as reeds and actions than to just have standard components across the range. The money would have been saved in the simpler fretwork in wood, no bushing, less folds to the bellows and less reeds. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goran rahm Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 Chris:"The 38-button was clearly superior, but the 26 button was still very good, especially after it had been bushed for me by Colin Dipper. The reeds and the rivetted action appear to have been standard Jeffries in both. I would imagine it would have actually been more expensive to maintain two qualities of components such as reeds and actions than to just have standard components across the range. The money would have been saved in the simpler fretwork in wood, no bushing, less folds to the bellows and less reeds." Goran:I don't want to contradict what you are saying but considering the common differences in reed qualities related to varying time phases in makers production and individual skill in making reeds as well as other occasional variations it may be a great hazard to generalize. If/when you have virtually identical instruments or certainly contemporary ones you may have a chance to make valid comparisons. Also keep in mind that the common procedure has not been to "maintain two qualities of components such as reeds" but to select the best reeds and utilize the best competence for the 'top quality' instruments. This 'costs' (almost) nothing in production (except possibly a little extra time according to ambitions..) but is a 'value' for the product and can be priced thereafter. Elaborate fretwork is different like you say Chris and does 'cost' in production too. To be able to compare the effects of fretwork however you mostly get into trouble since you have to use at least two 'identical' instruments with *all* interchangeable parts or several instruments from a 'batch' of production. Both cases are hard to realize. I've been able to do the first almost a dozen times but to get really valid results all the same you have to objectivize it somehow and that is tricky too... There are several factors to consider which interact: 1) The material of the end plates 2) The thickness of the ends 3) The outlet/opening area 4) The complexity of the outlet area (the principle matter being the relation between 'edge length/outlet area') which is visible in the elaborate decorative pattern. Whether this was initially intended or not is an open question but the complex 'luxury' fretworks are expected to increase reduction of high frequency overtones and thus cause a 'mellower' and more 'pure' tone since the fundamental frequency will be more prominent. Goran Rahm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 (edited) I have a policy of never replying to posts from Goran Rahm. I had hoped, but did not expect, that he would extend the same courtesy to me. Chris Edit: for typo Edited December 15, 2003 by Chris Timson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 I will just say that "coarse" -- as in more open and less intricate -- fretwork does not necessarily equate with low quality. In Chris T's picture of his erstwhile wooden-ended Jeffries the fretwork is very open but still looks carefully cut, with artistic curves. The worksmanship is not at all "coarse", in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 I would agree. A simpler, more open design would be cheaper to produce by virtue of less work being involved, but the company may choose (as Jeffries clearly did) to exercise the same standards of quality control. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d.elliott Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 Whilst not an anglo player, I would point out that a premier instument of its day was the English system six sided pinhole Aeola made by Wheatstones. No one could call this fretting exciting, complex or other than mildly interesting, and yet the instrument was top notch stuff, if sounding very 'closed in' and more than just 'mellow'. I believe the instrument 'grade' is best judges by things like: the key holes are bushed standard of wood and leather finish bone versus metal or other keys materials used, (not plain mahogany) above all the responsiveness and standard of reed work Chris, I like the rectangular instrument, I have read about them but never seen one. The design appears quite closed, so like the pin hole Aeola I would expect it to be mellow in tone, yet the area of the reed pad and would indicate plenty of room for long reeds, plenty of volume. How does it compare with its wooden ended, and metal ended fellows? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 I like the rectangular instrument, I have read about them but never seen one. The design appears quite closed, so like the pin hole Aeola I would expect it to be mellow in tone, yet the area of the reed pad and would indicate plenty of room for long reeds, plenty of volume. How does it compare with its wooden ended, and metal ended fellows? The photo is part of the preparation for a web page I shall be putting up in the next few weeks with sound samples of all four (and also a Jones wooden-wended and a Jeffries 38 with leather baffles, again both G/D's). The intention is to demonstrate the sound qualities of accordion reeds v. concertina reeds and wooden ends v. metal ends v. baffles. Watch this space. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goran rahm Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Chris:"... a web page I shall be putting up .....The intention is to demonstrate the sound qualities of accordion reeds v. concertina reeds and wooden ends v. metal ends v. baffles." Goran:The issue and the intention certainly is interesting and 'real' comments should rest until the practical outcome but sadly enough it may be predicted that the conclusions will be hazardous.... If 'sound qualities' of "accordion reeds v. concertina reeds" will be possiblbe to evaluate you must have them mounted in *the same (or possibly 'similar') box* and likewise concerning "wooden ends v. metal ends" the *ends* must be used on the same (or possibly a 'twin') instrument.... Otherwise you are demonstrating the 'sound qualities' of the respective *intruments*...not their *reeds* or *ends*.... Baffles is easier...you can simply take them out... Goran Rahm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 ....'real' comments should rest until the practical outcome... Göran, does this mean that your comments which followed that statement aren't 'real'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d.elliott Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Chris, look forward to see/hearing your web site, but this area is still on narrow gauge, my max connection speed 33,000 bytes per annum, watch the file sizes please! are you going to put a post on this site to let us know when the task is complete? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 ...complex 'luxury' fretworks are expected to increase reduction of high frequency overtones... Why? How? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Otherwise you are demonstrating the 'sound qualities' of the respective *intruments*...not their *reeds* or *ends*.... That depends.... If several instruments which all share a particular feature (e.g., "accordion" reeds) but differ in other respects (e.g., end material, end shape, etc.) all share a similar sound quality, yet a variety of instruments without that feature have a different quality, then one may reasonably conclude that the particular feature is responsible for the difference. On the other hand, if there are only two instruments, differing in more than one feature (e.g., end shape, end material, and reed type), then as Göran suggests, it's not valid to conclude that any of those features (or any combination of them) is responsible for any particular difference in sound quality. I think we should wait to see what Chris presents before we judge either his methods, results, or conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 I believe the instrument 'grade' is best judges by things like: the key holes are bushed ... Dave, you've mentioned this before as a criterion of quality, but I'm not convinced. While it may be true of later instruments, my limited experience suggests that all early concertinas -- even luxury models -- lacked such bushings. I suspect that it is an "improvement" added at some point, which became pretty much standard, but was subsequently omitted in the cheapest models. I wonder if some of the other repairers/restorers and historians could help us with their own experience and conclusions on this matter. In particular, if I'm correct, can anyone document when this feature was introduced or became standard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goran rahm Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 QUOTE (goran rahm @ Dec 14 2003, 08:07 PM) ...complex 'luxury' fretworks are expected to increase reduction of high frequency overtones... Jim:Why? How? Goran:We have some different phenomena of reduction of high frequences related to the fretwork compositon as such... 1) the total outlet area 2) the 'depth' of the the holes (i.e the thickness of the endplates) 3) the edge length ('circumference') of the cut holes Reduction of amplitide may be caused by objects in the direction of sound passage...low frequences less affected than high....theoretically there is a border for objects smaller than the wavelength but I don't know if it is absolute or what the relativity is. Edge passage causes reduction. Anyway this means that the 'length of holes v. their area' and 'the total edge length v. total outlet area' are factors expected being of importance. I say "expected" since the significance for 'concertina endplates' as far as I know has not been thoroughly studied.I've made some simple spectrometric tests myself. According to the above 1) the object is expected to reduce amplitudes...high frequences more than low 2) two edges ( one inner and one outer) may have more influence than 'one' 3) a "complex"/"luxury" fretwork is expected to have more pronounced high frequency reduction effect than a 'simple'/'crude'/'not as elaborate' one..since the quota 'the edge length'/'outlet area' will be larger. Compare a * or + figure with an *o* with similar outlet areas. The "o" has the smallest 'circumference'/area. The significance of the length of fret pattern figures has not been examined...I would guess that long thin lines /// would be 'more efficient' than lots of ***. Some tests have been made: - I compared a number of 16mm diam endplate holes with 16 times as many 4mm ones. The outlet area will be the same but the smaller ones will present 4 times as much 'edge length' . My test showed greater reduction of high frequences with the smaller holes. - I made a couple of ends with "f- holes" ...similar to string instrument ones....and these came out even more 'mellow' ....but I didn't have the facilities to check the spectrum of them. The subjective impression may support the expected greater effect from "/// " . - I tested some "pin hole" Wheatstones and these had greater high frequency reduction than any other ends I tested but they also are fairly 'tight' ..having less outlet area than most other ends despite I have not tried to calculate the difference. Goran Rahm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 are you going to put a post on this site to let us know when the task is complete? Mais oui, mon frere. Wouldn't dream of not doing. Actually I am embarking on a big rewrite of the FAQ, which is well overdue. Other things I'll be doing include a "long term test" of Morse concertinas (we have one of each, so too good an opportunity to miss), and a substantial rewrite of the duets section, which is looking increasingly inadequate as I learn more. The Concertina Wiki never really took off, so I shall likely close that, however some valuable contributions were made to it which I shall fold back into the FAQ. As I say, watch this space. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slatteryj Posted December 30, 2003 Author Share Posted December 30, 2003 (edited) Ref Jims comment "I wonder if some of the other repairers/restorers and historians could help us with their own experience and conclusions on this matter. In particular, if I'm correct, can anyone document when this feature was introduced or became standard? " I have just purchased a Wheatstone Linota and will be taking delivery in the next 2 weeks (just can't wait). It has mahagony ends and no bushings - see picture. I am really intrigued to find out if this model is a standard Linota with 'plain' ends or something else. I would love to hear your thoughts. Does anyone have contact with Colin Dipper, maybe they could contact him - I have heard he is the expert in Wheatstone technology. Edited December 30, 2003 by slatteryj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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