Concertoneon

[m3838]

Just checked metal ended and wood ended Lachenals at lark in the Morning.

The only playable one was metal ended, with only one note not sounding on the push.

Others were leaking. As usual, price didn't reflect it.$1800 -2000.

However, I just played a few simple tunes with harmony on that metal ended and realized, I'm not much of a fan of English Concertina. The reason - high notes (anything above second C) is just un-godly squeaky.

I'm sure, the better instruments may (or may not) have full bodied sound up there, but mostly not.

 

It got me to think: What if it is possible to modify Jack/Jacky?

 

Instead of reed plate with two reeds in opposite direction of flexing, have two reeds in one (!) direction, on the pull. Very low reeds of Jack may be left alone to avoid catastrophic air consumption.

On the push it may have narrow long bandoneon type air valve with a weak spring, so the valve will be shut in neutral position, but a slight bellow compression will open it.

 

Another, more elaborate idea would be to have pull reedplates with two, octave tuned reeds or usual banks with double reeds on the push and pull, but it will require special re-design so I guess it's out.

However, since Jack has lower reeds with weights, is it possible to have all the second reeds in a plate fitted with weights and tune an octave apart?

So there will be a new instrument with superb English concertina layout, but sounding like a bandoneon, played on pull, like a bandoneon, costing less than a bandoneon. I suspect the reeds will be faster to start, helped by higher pitched twins.

A Concertoneon?

I'd make myself something like this.

 

Wim, are you there?

Am I sane?

[m3838]

Me again.

I guess I can order Jackie, sand the reed rivets off with Dremmel, flip the reed and fasten it with machine bolt (since I don't have riveting equipment).

The flipped reed will have natual tremolo with the original, will it not?

The air valves can be fitted on existing holes on both sides action deck or one of the holes can be closed with a piece of plywood.

 

So the experiment can be conducted in two stages:

1. to fit an air valve on the existing hole, while another hole is closed.

It'll give me an idea of playability of such thing

(It would be easier to do with English construction real instrument, but

the expences are prohibiting.)

2. Custom flip at least one reed (say, the lowest or the highest, the least used) and see how it sounds.

 

Interesting, does anybody want an English concertina with tremolo, sounding like an accordion?

[tony]

Interesting, does anybody want an English concertina with tremolo, sounding like an accordion?

 

Yes. Go for it.

[Richard Morse]

I guess I can order Jackie, sand the reed rivets off with Dremmel, flip the reed and fasten it with machine bolt (since I don't have riveting equipment).

That might work if the vent fit is good. Often with cheaper reeds the entry side is finished well but the exit side is pretty raw, sometime with tear-outs.

The flipped reed will have natual tremolo with the original, will it not?

Whatever tremolo you get is inherent with how they tuned (or not) the reeds. If the reeds were tuned to be perfectly on pitch, then when you relocate one to the other side of the plate it will be off by about 5 cents which is a very slight tremolo (melodeon players call "swing" tremolo). I don't know how on-pitch those boxes come, but a pair of Stagi reeds can be anywhere from -10 to +25 cents. Plus when you remove the valves (which won't be needed in your senario), the pitch will be altered yet again. I would imagine the resulting box having a very uneven tremolo from slight to raucous. Tuning will fix that though - and you can have it tuned to whatever tremolo you want.

The air valves can be fitted on existing holes on both sides action deck or one of the holes can be closed with a piece of plywood.

You'd need one only, a much larger one which could work automatically when playing and be fitted such that it can manually operated when closing the box after playing.

 

-- Rich --

[chris]

Please stick to trying to 'improve' Anglos. English are fine as they are and don't need 'improving'

chris

[tony]

You'd need one only, a much larger one which could work automatically when playing and be fitted such that it can manually operated when closing the box after playing.

 

-- Rich --

 

 

But wouldn't the box be played opening the bellows, and grab some wind when closing?

 

Go ahead and improve th EC, if you can.

[d.elliott]

Please stick to trying to 'improve' Anglos. English are fine as they are and don't need 'improving'

chris

 

I tend to agree, and I still wonder that for some people, anglo's are still in the development phase.!?!?!?!?!?!???

 

 

Dave

[JimLucas]

The air valves can be fitted on existing holes on both sides action deck or one of the holes can be closed with a piece of plywood.

You'd need one only, a much larger one which could work automatically when playing and be fitted such that it can manually operated when closing the box after playing.

But wouldn't the box be played opening the bellows, and grab some wind when closing?

That's not the way the old single-action concertinas work. They play on the push and gulp air on the pull.

 

I've never thought about it before, but I suspect that's because if you push the ends together you need to prevent the ends moving sideways to each other, and the more rapidly you push, the more difficult it becomes. But when pulling, as the ends get farther apart, their alignment becomes less critical, yet the pull of the stretching bellows actually helps keep them aligned.

[JimLucas]

Interesting, does anybody want an English concertina with tremolo, sounding like an accordion?

Please stick to trying to 'improve' Anglos. English are fine as they are and don't need 'improving'

While I have no intention of placing an order, nor even a desire to own such an instrument, I am nevertheless curious about what the result might be, and I look forward to Michael's report if/when he gets it working.

 

I also don't think the English is fundamentally in need of improvement -- or "improvement", -- but I do favor innovation... as long as it doesn't do irreparable harm to a lovely instrument.

[m3838]

Please stick to trying to 'improve' Anglos. English are fine as they are and don't need 'improving'

chris

 

You misunderstood the attempt.

It's not to "improve" either one, it's to modify existing inexpencive instruments with minimum intrusion, to fit various needs of people, who would like to play an accordion, bandoneon, fluite, piano - whatever, but don't have the financial means, time, space, whathaveyou.

Ofcourse a fine 12 sided Aeola with rased ebony ends doesn't need any improvement. But if I like the sound of a bandoneon, have no time to learn seemingly impossible layout, a hassle every time I want to bring it wherever i go - I want small, portable, compact device, easy to read with, that is not a ukulele or harmonica.

I want minimum alterations, keeping the same button layout, and I want it now.

Same with my chromatized Anglo - it's your standard 20 button Lachenal, where C row is unchanged, only 10 reeds are changed in G row, leaving the highest untouched, which gives you same cross-row fingering for high end of scale, and very logical placement of accidentals. If I need to sell it, I'll just swap the reeds in 15 minutes and it's C/G again.

And the best of all... - It is only $400

Now, try to find chromaic anglo concertina, english construction for such an amount.

[m3838]

Interesting, does anybody want an English concertina with tremolo, sounding like an accordion?

Please stick to trying to 'improve' Anglos. English are fine as they are and don't need 'improving'

While I have no intention of placing an order, nor even a desire to own such an instrument, I am nevertheless curious about what the result might be, and I look forward to Michael's report if/when he gets it working.

 

I also don't think the English is fundamentally in need of improvement -- or "improvement", -- but I do favor innovation... as long as it doesn't do irreparable harm to a lovely instrument.

 

Thank you Jim.

That's exactly my goal. I don't want heavier instrument or bigger.

I like english design, it's work of a genius. But I do notice that Jack is very slow. I also noticed it's low reeds have "mooing" sound, making some people cringe, some lough and joke, and making a player a dork. Harmony on low end of Jack is compromised too. So the solution may be in octave tuning, making the low sound having that lovely heart wrenching bandoneon quality in the same box. And I can't get Piazzola playing out of my mind.

It's only on the pull, never on the push, and the mastery is outstanding.

 

Thank you Richard for good suggestions. I think I'd rather leave valves intact not to alter the tuning.

On the second thought, taking the valves off may allow to get rid of an automatic air valve and save some work. So every time you need to gulp air, you may just push any number of buttons together, and instead of automatic, and possibly somewhat unreliable valve, have manual "valve" and be in full control.

If these reeds will let enugh air through, ofcourse.

[Frank Edgley]

Maybe I haven't read the posts carefully enough which has been a fault of mine before, but an instrument which may not have the most air-efficient construction and reeds, and with bellows designed for mostly single note playing, may not work well having two reeds sounding constantly, especially if single action. A lot of time will be spent "breathing", i.e. getting air into an instrument which uses a lot of air due to it being designed as a mostly single note instrument. I respect attempts to innovate, but concertinas have been designed successfully, over the years, by people who have put in a lot of thought to their design, and who have been involved in their design & construction. More reeds being sounded at one time means a larger bellows capacity, especially if single action. To make it double action (push & pull) with more than one reed sounding, requires a bigger box. Voila, we have an accordion. The actual shape of the box is of smaller consequence.

[m3838]

Maybe I haven't read the posts carefully enough which has been a fault of mine before, but an instrument which may not have the most air-efficient construction and reeds, and with bellows designed for mostly single note playing, may not work well having two reeds sounding constantly, especially if single action. A lot of time will be spent "breathing", i.e. getting air into an instrument which uses a lot of air due to it being designed as a mostly single note instrument. I respect attempts to innovate, but concertinas have been designed successfully, over the years, by people who have put in a lot of thought to their design, and who have been involved in their design & construction. More reeds being sounded at one time means a larger bellows capacity, especially if single action. To make it double action (push & pull) with more than one reed sounding, requires a bigger box. Voila, we have an accordion. The actual shape of the box is of smaller consequence.

 

True. It is a concern, esp. for the Jack, where air is used more quickly. Perhabs Jackie will be better with tremolo, not octave. Again, please keep in mind, it's not an attempt to improve a successful design. Simply a desperate attempt to sit between two chairs. My first attempt, of having 20 buton chromatic, has been a total and complete success. The two reeds in a box with small bellows is indeed a problem. And a shape of a box in of no importance, true.

Another factor that moves me into it is expressiveness of sound on the pull. There is no need to have push reeds it seems. Natural breathing can be a good thing. After all, it is not for a whim, that they play 3 row accordions and bandoneons only on the pull. I found myself wanting to have an air valve and compress the bellows. But, ofcourse, EC can't have workable air valve. So that's the thinking...

May be two sets of bellows glued together will work?

[Richard Morse]

If it's more the sound you want rather than the exercise of reconstructing a box, Stagi makes a few double reeded concertinas. They play in both directions.

 

-- Rich --

[Daniel Hersh]

Silvetta makes them too.

 

Daniel

 

If it's more the sound you want rather than the exercise of reconstructing a box, Stagi makes a few double reeded concertinas. They play in both directions.

 

-- Rich --

Edited October 14, 2006 by Daniel Hersh

[m3838]

Silvetta makes them too.

 

Daniel

 

If it's more the sound you want rather than the exercise of reconstructing a box, Stagi makes a few double reeded concertinas. They play in both directions.

 

-- Rich --

 

But those are 20 button Anglos. I will have to chromatize them, and I'm not sure, if I can order custom tuned push/pull reedplates for the altered G row. It was my initial idea of getting one of those, replacing the reeds with Weltmeister reeds and fix them without wax, but with bolts. Making sure the reedplates touch each other, so the vibration from one gets over to the others. My expectations were to improve the responce and the sound. But it turned to be more expencive deal than modifying traditional Lachenal.

Also, it doesn't adress the problem of low reeds of poorer qualtiy been very sluggish.

If I could put two reeds, tuned in octave, to the 'same' reedplate, I expect much improved responce.

That's what they do on Helikon boxes: the very large bass reeds have tiny "starter" reed fixed to the same reedplace.