Three Row G, D, A Anglo - Three Full Chromatic Octaves

[John Sylte]

Hi All,

 

I'm a 32 year old fiddler (of 21 years) turned diatonic harmonica player turned concertina player... I have been playing traditional irish tunes since 1995 and started playing American old time music in 2001. I have a C/G Stagi that I mainly play "in the rows". Having played harmonica, this is quite natural to me. When I go to sessions I only take a G, Low D, and an A harmonica, and those keys suit me just fine. I recently sat down and charted out what I am thinking is a perfect GDA concertina. With threee extra buttons I figured out how to make it fully chromatic. I have made a down payment on a custom concertina, but I have not finalized the button layout. I would like some feedback. This seems like a viable layout to me. Is there something else I should be considering? I'd rather that my bubble be burst now than when the instrument is on my lap...

 

Thanks All-

[Peter Brook]

Hi All,

 

I'm a 32 year old fiddler (of 21 years) turned diatonic harmonica player turned concertina player... I have been playing traditional irish tunes since 1995 and started playing American old time music in 2001. I have a C/G Stagi that I mainly play "in the rows". Having played harmonica, this is quite natural to me. When I go to sessions I only take a G, Low D, and an A harmonica, and those keys suit me just fine. I recently sat down and charted out what I am thinking is a perfect GDA concertina. With threee extra buttons I figured out how to make it fully chromatic. I have made a down payment on a custom concertina, but I have not finalized the button layout. I would like some feedback. This seems like a viable layout to me. Is there something else I should be considering? I'd rather that my bubble be burst now than when the instrument is on my lap...

 

Thanks All-

 

As a melodeon (english term for button accordion) player as well as an anglo concertina player I'm not sure why you don't just buy a 3 row melodeon tuned to GDA with 12 bases - or am I missing the whole point?

[John Sylte]

As a melodeon (english term for button accordion) player as well as an anglo concertina player I'm not sure why you don't just buy a 3 row melodeon tuned to GDA with 12 bases - or am I missing the whole point?

 

Hi Peter,

 

I appreciate your response.

 

I have a three row GDA button accordion. I like being able to play in the rows, but it's very large and I'm not too fond of it's sound. I also have a B/C black dot, and while the sound is a little more palatable, it still turns me off in group settings. And (when playing by myself) I find myself playing everything out of the C row. I like the simple sound of a single reed and the compactness of a concertina. And since I rarely use the row of accidentals on my C/G adding an A row seems a worthy trade-off, at least in my case. That's the point that I am aiming for. Maybe I'm missing a point? What problems would you anticipate with my layout?

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

[Richard Morse]

I'm also a button accordion player turned concertina player. I played D/G for years and A/D/G infrequently (because I felt it was overly large and not as much fun to play). If I were to have a BA layout concertina made for me I'd probably do with the Franglo layout - which I loved (I was able to play the one in that photo for a bit).

 

The nice thing about the Franglo is that I could play it instantly - the treble side is exactly fingered like the lower treble side of a BA. Your suggested treble side layout is like the UPPER side of a BA - but most tunes are in the lower treble side range. If you want to play tunes in the range they are normally played on you would be playing mostly on the left side of your box and you would probably use only maybe 5 or 6 notes ever on your right side.

 

I also find doing the push/pull arrangement of the lower treble octave easier than the second octave. The first octave is under all four fingers. I never have to shift my position to get that pull note on the 5th button like anglos are typically arranged.

 

Of course if you shift things so that you'd now be playing the melody in it's range on the right side, the left side would go 'way down. An octave LOWER than most concertinas if you stick to single notes. Not a bad thing in my mind though keeping the box small and still having it responsive would be a trick. Making it a 12 button bass like the Franglo is nice though I'd lean toward the single notes as you can be more accompaniment-flexible that way.

 

I hear some folks wonder how the note pattern would work on the left then.... I suggest making it as you have it. NOT having it an extension of the treble push/pull pattern. They're separate hands - why not keep the patterns separate? And now the same push/pull pattern. Much easier to play to boot!

 

Nice project. Go for it! Bring it to the Squeeze-In next year so we can all check it out.

[Peter Brook]

Sorry, I guess I am a stick in the mud!

 

But go for it. Your reasons are all valid. i totally appreciated the weight issue and the speed of response.

 

I heard the franglo at close quarters last year and it wasn't for me. I guess I am weird but I think Castagnari Lillys are cheating by only having one reed!

 

anyway I hope you get lots of constructive feedback.

[John Sylte]

I appreciate the great feedback so far. It has helped me hatch a new idea that I want to share with you all. Please read this carefully and try to follow my logic. I'll try to keep this clear and to a minimum...

 

I have been thinking about what you said Richard, about the left hand often being favored over the right on account of the note layout. While I have learned to play many tunes on both the upper and lower octaves, I am more comfortable playing on the lower octave. The layout is more natural. Holes 4 - 7 of the typical diatonic harmonica play exactly like buttons 3 - 6 on a concertina. Then holes 7 - 10 on the harmonica do the same switcharoo (pull note lower than push) that the concertina does on buttons 6-10. Chromatic harmonicas have overcome this by incorporating solo tuning. This means the note layout on holes 1-4 (same as 3 - 6 on a concertina) is the same as the note layout on holes 5 - 8, and holes 9-12. This results in a double tonic, so holes 4 and 5 push are both Cs (on a C Chromonica), as well as holes 8 and 9. This is nice when playing a chromatic harmonica in a major key, because you get three octaves using the same exact push/pull pattern. When playing in a non-major mode though, it's easy to get lost in the pattern at the double tonic. I was thinking, incorporating solo tuning on the concertina, this double tonic could be broken by the bellows and may seem more natural. Solo tuning the right and left octaves offers two immediate benefits. A complete (major) scale can be played on either side without crossing over to the other (using the same note pattern). Also, octaves can be played in unison without the staggered fingering. So using a 3 x 4 pattern with 12 buttons on either side I can get a GDA concertina with a two octave range.

(See Pic 1 - Top left)

 

 

This looked good. With only 24 buttons though I was thinking it would be nice to add a C row, for the D Dorian tunes like Maids of Mitchelstown, the A Aeloian tunes like the Price of My Pig, and of course the C major tunes (which there are plenty of in old time music). So, I added a C row, following the circle of Fifths, the logical layout would be CGDA. (See Pic 2 - Top right)

 

Bass notes make me happy. By adding a button to the beginning of each row on the left hand side I can push a major bass note for each row. And I can utilize the pull to access the Aeolian and Dorian bass notes for all four keys D, A, E, and B, which are pull intensive modes on the concertina anyway. The only one I can't get is the F# Aeolian - who cares! (See Pic 3 - Bottom left )

 

So I realized no longer had three chromatic octaves, which honestly didn't bother me so much. In 21 years, I don't ever recall playing B flats and E flats on my fiddle. But then I got to looking at it, and realized that with three more buttons I could cover the C#, G#, and the two B flats and E flats. It's not three chromatic octaves, but it's two. That leaves me with four rows. 22 buttons on the left, 17 buttons on the right, for 39 total. (See Pic 4 - Bottom right )

 

Notice the duplicates for A, B, C, C#, D, E, F#, and G notes. All of these offer push and pull alternates.

 

This layout gives me access to Major keys CGDA, Dorian keys DAEB, Aeolian keys AEB, and Mixolydian keys GDAE. And all these keys can be played in one row (not the same row, obviously). I looked through my repertoire, and those keys cover all my tunes. I think this would be ideal, or as we say in the states, "the Shizzle". (In France I think they call this "Le Dookie".)

 

If I lived in an area where there were other concertina players to listen to, learn from, and play with, I would probably be reluctant to reinvent the wheel. But, alas, I live in North Idaho. Concertina players are as common here as wilderbeasts. I figure if I want a cup holder on my concertina, I'm going for it.

 

Whaddya all think?

Edited October 6, 2006 by John Sylte

[m3838]

There are many opportunities for the various designs.

Acc/C/G and variants is here, for a reason, common, and replaceable. Put down one instrument, pick up another and keep on playing. It's important.

The only reason in changing the common practice, that I see so far, is to have less buttons/weight/cost and maintain reasonable universality of the instrument. I think 24 buttons Anglo Concertina is almost there, except it costs a lot.

All the other layouts are pretty much an exchange for nothing. I once designed a hybrid uni-sonoric accordion with diatonic two/half rows on the trebble and short Stradella on the bass. Or unisonoric 3 row, based on modern diatonic design.

You can have a uni-sonoric Anglo in A/D/G, or by-sonoric Anglo in g/C/C#, or 100 button multy row Anglo ( and they are called Bandoneons). I'd say, stick with the tradition, it gives more than it deprives you of. But if you absolutely have to, go for it.

P.S.

Well, how about a music notation system, that gets rid of irregularities of 7 notes, written on 5 lines?

Done, works, easy to learn and follow, but absolutely un-interesting to the pros. Even frightening, from my experience.

[Dana Johnson]

For practical purposes. It is unfortunate to load up the left hand with so many notes. The lowest reeds are much larger, yet you have 23 where a 30 button has 15. Sure there are 39 button concertinas, but they have most of the "extra" buttons in the mid range on the left and right hand and don't have the profusion of lower notes. The right hand has much more room for notes since the reeds are so much smaller. You might think about shifting the balance to that side. If you don't do this, you are likely to be forced into a box that is much larger in diameter, and have the attendant extra force required on the bellows to attain the same playing pressures / volumes/ responsiveness.

Dana

[Dana Johnson]

Just noticing again, after looking more carefully at the diagram, you have many notes that have three different locations. ( also true for a 4 notes on the standard versions ) and another group that has four differentplaces the same notes occur. Since reed making is the costliest and most time consuming part of concertina making, do you really want to go to this excess just to avoid ever having to go out of a row to get a note in a certain scale? I have some sympathy for the extra work involved in learning different scales and different push pull patterns, but I am not sure that the effort involved in designing and constructing such an instrument is any less than learning how to play using keys that are occasionally out of your row.

 

I play mostly Irish music,(across the rows mostly but along when it suits a tune ) fluently ( requires no thinking to play ) in G and D, C and nearly so in A, ( and the relative minor /modal keys ) comfortably in G minor and Bb and can play E and F tunes without too much effort along with the various modal versions that are common to Irish music. When I run into a tune in a key I am less familiar with, an hours practice is enough to play it resonably well. I find the more I play in different keys the easier they all become. Having different note choices / chords available gives the different keys character, and leads me to find different ways to approach different tunes. This helps to keep all the tunes from ending up sounding the same after a while. I find the "limitations" of the standard 30 button layouts increases my creativity rather than sitfles it.

Dana

[Doug Anderson]

I've played the English concertina for about six years. My only opportunities to pick up another EC and play it are at the once-a-year weekend of the Northeast Squeeze-In, but I enjoy following discussions here and elsewhere that relate to the standard EC button layout.

 

About a year ago I also started playing the D/G melodeon. Modifications of the standard two-row melodeon button layout (to add low notes, accidentals, reversals and chords, etc.) are common, and some of them are tempting. But many experienced players recommend leaving the "core" buttons on both the treble and bass side alone, even when this results in inefficiencies like duplicated notes and awkward reaches. This make it possible to pick up any melodeon tuned in fifths and play it, and it means one can benefit from all of the method books, tutors, DVD's, tapes, etc. and the advice of fellow squeezers from all around the world via the internet

 

Even for someone in my situation with little or no opportunity to play instruments other than my own, I would think long and hard before turning my back on what everyone else is doing.

 

(Having said that, I do enjoy designing wierd and wonderful virtual melodeons, including the klezmelodeon that only plays in various modes of the harmonic D minor scale.)

[John Sylte]

Again, thank you all for your insightful feedback!

 

Dana, you make an excellent suggestion about not cramping the left side. I was flexing my brain too hard trying to figure out where those three extra buttons belonged. I wanted them to be near the other buttons they were most likely to be played with, so I didn't have to reach too far... It didn't occur to me that I could put them on the right hand side, freeing up the left hand altogether, as well as balancing out the requisite reed real estate on the left. (See attached pic)

 

I realize there are many redundant notes. Fortunately they all offer push and pull alternates (and many of those are even redundant). Without knowing what the maker thinks, or whether or not so many reeds will even fit, I feel that being able to play so many common keys in just one row is well worth the trade off.

 

I appreciate the benefits and importance of sticking with convention. I play Old Time Appalachian fiddle using many different tunings, and switching from one tuning to the next is never a problem, I just retune. I think the early Scotch/Irish immigrants that spawned the convention of retuning the fiddle for different keys were right on track. It's not so much about laziness as not wanting to work any harder than you have to I'm having fun thinking about the all-in-one solution for concertina. With so many keys available on one instrument, I think it could be quite slick. I figure I'll hold on to my C/G Stagi for videos and/or workshops...

 

Anyone else care to share their opinions about this design?

 

Thanks everyone!

Edited October 10, 2006 by John Sylte

[m3838]

I have three notes regarding the design:

1. You have 4 rows of buttons, so the instrument is bigger. All to have those high notes in the 4th octave. But these are squeeky and never sound too good. What's the benefit of having them in full chromatic octave? Same for the very low - very slow, air consuming. If you are trying to create an Anglo, capable of playing classical music from the score - there are other solutions. For folk music you can't beat 30 button Anglo.

2. There are some wonderful designs for one row 10 hole harmonica, making it fully chromatic, without a valve. Anybody remembers this guy's name? I don't have my bookmarks here at work, he makes and sells harmonicas and his layouts are outstanding in cleverness.

10 holes - fully chromatic in the most useful range.

I'd say, make your design smaller and lighter, not bigger and havier.

And 3:

Make a chart on the piiece of cardboard and learn to "play" your instrument.

You'll see immediately whether it will work. Doesn't cost you anything.

If it works, and you survive to having your instrument made, you'll start playing in no time, further proving your idea.

[m3838]

Another two cents:

 

You have one button with duplicate notes (a,d,g,c) in the same direction on both hands.

What if you put one of the accidental to the push on the right, and another accidental (that you have on the pull) - unisonoric? More opportunities for chording.

You seem to go with the German mindset: 6 one row diatonic accordions in one makes it fully chromatic.

[John Sylte]

M3838, you bring up some good points.

 

1) If the 4th row of buttons requires the instrument to be bigger, that may be a "showstopper" right there. It may not though, right? Are English concertinas bigger than anglo concertinas? It's been a while since I've held an english, so I don't remember. Isn't it likely that the reed layout will determine that though, not the buttons? Also, the C and G rows on my layout play in the same register as a standard C/G concertina, so the notes would be squeeky in either format. I played a standard G/D concertina, and the G was an octave lower than on a C/G. I thought it was too low. I'm not trying to hit the high notes in the 4th octave necessarily, I'm just trying to get two chromatic octaves.

 

2) I would like to see the chromatic 10 hole harmonica layout. Without a valve though, there must be two rows of holes? Or maybe the chromatic octave is played over 6 holes? Either way, the advantage of all push notes being 1s, 3s, and 5s would be lost right? Maybe not. Sounds interesting!

 

3) I have been essentially trying to test my layout using software called the amazing slow downer to bend recordings of my tunes up or down to the keys of G, where I practice them on my Stagi. I figure any note that I have to deviate out of the G row to find on my Stagi is a note I will also have to find on my layout. So far I am most commonly needing to cross out of the G row to the C for the 6 note (E2). Luckily, by minding the fifths, this same note is available in the same relative position (on the C row), on my layout. By testing in this way, am I thoroughly exposing the need for accidentals?

 

It's kinda like Fahrvergnugen! What is their word for "the joy of playing concertina?"

 

Thank you M3838-

 

Please keep the feedback coming everyone!

Edited October 10, 2006 by John Sylte