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Please Help With A Roll


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can someone please help me with the E/F roll on the left middle row...ANGLO concertina...what do i do for the E and f notes for rolls on either...?? thanks...

 

Well your basic options are to do a cran or to fake a roll. A cran for an F would FdbF where the db are on the right side and tapped very lightly. For E the sequence would be EecE.

 

Faking a roll is a little easier, just play the note 3 times and then between either the first and second or the second and third time you play a note, thow in another higher note. For example, you could play FFbF or FbFF. Alternately if you have enough dexterity in your left, you could play FaFF or FFaF. Hope this helps.

 

--

Bill

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can someone please help me with the E/F roll on the left middle row...ANGLO concertina...what do i do for the E and f notes for rolls on either...?? thanks...

 

Im really a novice. But someone told me that they thought you could play the same note three times quickly using three different fingers, in a quick tapping like motion. For example, by first using the ring finger, then middle, then index finger. Perhaps this is not a "roll," but rather a graced triplet.

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But someone told me that they thought you could play the same note three times quickly using three different fingers, in a quick tapping like motion. For example, by first using the ring finger, then middle, then index finger. Perhaps this is not a "roll," but rather a graced triplet.

If all the notes are the same, then I think "graced" is the wrong word. In my experieince, a "grace note" is always a different note from the one it leads into.

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But someone told me that they thought you could play the same note three times quickly using three different fingers, in a quick tapping like motion. For example, by first using the ring finger, then middle, then index finger. Perhaps this is not a "roll," but rather a graced triplet.

 

The sequence you describe is not a roll and as Jim pointed out it contains no grace notes. What's more, it could only be called a triplet if it occurs in the space of a quarter note (crotchet), as a substitute for what is called a "short roll" on most instruments (dunno about the tina). If it is used in place of a "long roll", you are merely playing three eighth notes (quavers), so you couldn't call it a triplet, a roll, or any other ornament. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, though. Many accordion players do this to great effect.

 

If you grace the second of these three eighth notes, however, you could call it a tina or box player's "fake roll" - maybe it has a real name, I don't know, but it sounds great. Miko Russell did an analagous thing in place of a roll on the tin whistle, probably because he spent most of his life listening to concertinas.

 

Steve

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>>The sequence you describe is not a roll and as Jim pointed out it contains no grace notes. What's more, it could only be called a triplet if it occurs in the space of a quarter note (crotchet), as a substitute for what is called a "short roll" on most instruments (dunno about the tina). If it is used in place of a "long roll", you are merely playing three eighth notes (quavers), so you couldn't call it a triplet, a roll, or any other ornament. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, though. Many accordion players do this to great effect.

 

If you grace the second of these three eighth notes, however, you could call it a tina or box player's "fake roll" - maybe it has a real name, I don't know, but it sounds great. Miko Russell did an analagous thing in place of a roll on the tin whistle, probably because he spent most of his life listening to concertinas.

<<

 

Whether it's a roll or not has nothing to do with the actual notes you articulate the roll with. The sequence of the same note quickly repeated three times with different fingers on the same button is typically a short roll. If it sounds like a roll it's a roll. Even on the same instrument there are wide variations in exactly how to play a roll. It's all in the timing and the resultant sound you get.

 

Calling the finger articulations in Itrad "grace notes" is a bad idea. They are not "notes" in the sense that they have no time value and are not meant to be heard as having a specific pitch. They are not melodic variations since their pitch is not the point, but instead are rhythmic articulations.

 

http://www.greylarsen.com/store/catalog/pr...;products_id=25

 

Grey Larsen's above book has a fantastic discussion of rolls. While this book is written for flute and whistle it's a terrific resource for anyone interested in Irish Trad.

 

bruce boysen

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Whether it's a roll or not has nothing to do with the actual notes you articulate the roll with. The sequence of the same note quickly repeated three times with different fingers on the same button is typically a short roll. If it sounds like a roll it's a roll. Even on the same instrument there are wide variations in exactly how to play a roll. It's all in the timing and the resultant sound you get.

 

With respect, a triplet like that won't sound like a roll. It might capture the rhytem of a role, but its sound will be distinct. A short roll definitely will involve two notes, the note, a higher note (or perhaps a lower note) and the note again.

 

 

Calling the finger articulations in Itrad "grace notes" is a bad idea. They are not "notes" in the sense that they have no time value and are not meant to be heard as having a specific pitch. They are not melodic variations since their pitch is not the point, but instead are rhythmic articulations.

 

http://www.greylarsen.com/store/catalog/pr...;products_id=25

 

Grey Larsen's above book has a fantastic discussion of rolls. While this book is written for flute and whistle it's a terrific resource for anyone interested in Irish Trad.

 

bruce boysen

 

They are not heard as having a specific pitch persay, but I think grace notes is perfectly acceptable since that is the common term used for it. Also, just because you can't identify the spefic pitch played, doesn't mean that any note would work.

 

In any case, its simple, a long roll generally is not played on the Anglo concertina... there are a few that are theoretically possible, but after having discussed the issue of roles with several of the teachers at the Catskills this year, they really are not used. Whatever we decide to call a roll is not really going to be considered a roll by the flute and the fiddle community.

 

--

Bill

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[Grey Larsen's book] has a fantastic discussion of rolls. While this book is written for flute and whistle it's a terrific resource for anyone interested in Irish Trad.

I was gonna say that since Grey also plays anglo, he should do a book for that, too. Except that he plays a D/A.

 

Then again, maybe it's time someone wrote a book for an anglo other than a C/G.

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>>With respect, a triplet like that won't sound like a roll. It might capture the rhytem of a role, but its sound will be distinct. A short roll definitely will involve two notes, the note, a higher note (or perhaps a lower note) and the note again.<<

 

Bill, we'll just have to disagree here. Not only will it work to use the same note, but in my opinion it sounds more like a short roll on flute or whistle, which is my backround. The point is, there is no set way to do them and all that matters is that the result sounds like how you want your roll to sound.

 

 

>>Whatever we decide to call a roll is not really going to be considered a roll by the flute and the fiddle community.<<

 

Sorry, but again I think this is incorrect. Most of them would accept it just fine, and in my experience, they do. Perhaps the difference is I'm playing them on an english concertina, and while I've read and listened to how they're done on an anglo I take the wider view that the point is to sound correct within the Irish tradition. Perhaps some anglo players are limiting themselves too much here? A long roll on a concertina, at least on the english, sounds just fine IMO, when done much the same way you'd do it on a flute. I do it this way, sometimes using the exact same notes I'd use on a flute. A lot of times I also do it by a rapid repeat of the same note. If the timing is right not only does it sound like a roll, but I personally think it sounds great to use the repeated note technique. I really doubt most people playing other instruments are going to notice or object if you have the timing down.

 

bruce

Edited by BruceB
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>>With respect, a triplet like that won't sound like a roll. It might capture the rhytem of a role, but its sound will be distinct. A short roll definitely will involve two notes, the note, a higher note (or perhaps a lower note) and the note again.<<

 

Bill, we'll just have to disagree here. Not only will it work to use the same note, but in my opinion it sounds more like a short roll on flute or whistle, which is my backround. The point is, there is no set way to do them and all that matters is that the result sounds like how you want your roll to sound.

 

Yes we will, because to my ears the sound is distinct.. an up and down thing going that just isn't there with the repeated note. The repeated note will work fine in the tune, and won't clash with what other people are playing, but to my ears at least, it doesn't sound like roll.

 

>>Whatever we decide to call a roll is not really going to be considered a roll by the flute and the fiddle community.<<

 

Sorry, but again I think this is incorrect. Most of them would accept it just fine, and in my experience, they do. Perhaps the difference is I'm playing them on an english concertina, and while I've read and listened to how they're done on an anglo I take the wider view that the point is to sound correct within the Irish tradition. Perhaps some anglo players are limiting themselves too much here? A long roll on a concertina, at least on the english, sounds just fine IMO, when done much the same way you'd do it on a flute. I do it this way, sometimes using the exact same notes I'd use on a flute. A lot of times I also do it by a rapid repeat of the same note. If the timing is right not only does it sound like a roll, but I personally think it sounds great to use the repeated note technique. I really doubt most people playing other instruments are going to notice or object if you have the timing down.

 

bruce

 

 

I didn't say they wouldn't accept it, I said they wouldn't consider it a roll. As you said, the important thing is to be correct within the idiom of the music. True long rolls generally aren't done on the Anglo because they are just rather awkward. As a result Anglo players have ways of faking them (Which I noted in my first post on the thread). And mind you, I am not simply talking about neophytes here. This very discussion came up in Micheál Ó Raghallaigh's class in the Catskills. We spent quite a bit of that class discussing what to do where you would throw a roll in on another instrument. Essentially Micheál's answer was cran or fake the roll. Now I doubt that there are too many people out there who are going to claim that he is limiting himself too much.

 

--

Bill

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Bill writes.....

>> True long rolls generally aren't done on the Anglo because they are just rather awkward. As a result Anglo players have ways of faking them (Which I noted in my first post on the thread). <<

 

I've listened to lots of anglo recordings and the anglo players I've heard sure have figured out how to make a roll sound good. Again, if it sounds like a roll, it's a roll. The concept of a "fake roll" is absurd, it doesn't matter how you get there, all that matters is how it sounds.

On an english it's very easy to do a roll exactly like you'd do it on a flute or whistle and have it sound good. I do see how this might be a problem on an anglo.

 

>>Yes we will, because to my ears the sound is distinct.. an up and down thing going that just isn't there with the repeated note. The repeated note will work fine in the tune, and won't clash with what other people are playing, but to my ears at least, it doesn't sound like roll.<<

 

Again, perhaps it's an anglo specific thing you're talking about, that's why we disagree. On flute & whistle there is no up and down thing going on, it's all on one note (if you can hear the cut & tip well enough to get a sense of their pitch you're playing them way too long, at least that's how I learned em). On an english concertina I think a short roll done by repeatedly hitting the same button sounds very much like a short roll on a flute.

 

The more I play around with Irish tunes on the english the more I realize how perfectly suited it is for Itrad. I'll stop posting here as the original question was about rolls on an anglo.

 

bruce

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Again, perhaps it's an anglo specific thing you're talking about, that's why we disagree. On flute & whistle there is no up and down thing going on, it's all on one note (if you can hear the cut & tip well enough to get a sense of their pitch you're playing them way too long, at least that's how I learned em). On an english concertina I think a short roll done by repeatedly hitting the same button sounds very much like a short roll on a flute.

 

The more I play around with Irish tunes on the english the more I realize how perfectly suited it is for Itrad. I'll stop posting here as the original question was about rolls on an anglo.

Bruce, I'm with Bill on this one, and I play both English and whistle. Three repetitions separated by sounds, whether or not their pitch is identifiable, just doesn't sound the same as three repetitions separated by silences.

 

To put it in flute terms, are you really saying that you can't hear a difference between a roll and triple-tongueing on the flute? They are similarly effective, and usually will even sound fine when played together, but there is an audible difference. It's the difference between legato (roll, cran, etc.) and staccato (triple-tongueing, or repetitions on the same button with nothing in between).

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The concept of a "fake roll" is absurd, it doesn't matter how you get there, all that matters is how it sounds.

 

Bruce, I agree with the second part of your statement. The problem is that very rarely do I hear anything produced on any kind of squeezebox that really does sound like a roll on fiddle or flute. If three repeated notes squeezed into a quarter note sound like anything, it's the fiddler's "treble", which no fiddler could possibly confuse with a roll.

 

I call what I described a "fake roll" because (see Jim's post above) the second instance of the main note is graced, i.e. has a sound to provide the articulation (and possibly a silence preceding it), and the third has only silence.

 

Calling it a fake is not to disparage it. It's been around a long time and is a staple device used by Anglo and button-box players. As I said in my first post, and as Bill and Jim have echoed, all the devices we are talking about are very effective and pleasing. Call them rolls if you will - after all (Grey Larsen's treatise notwithstanding), terminology is ultimately of no importance in playing music. But I don't think many will agree with you.

 

Steve

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I've listened to lots of anglo recordings and the anglo players I've heard sure have figured out how to make a roll sound good. Again, if it sounds like a roll, it's a roll. The concept of a "fake roll" is absurd, it doesn't matter how you get there, all that matters is how it sounds.

On an english it's very easy to do a roll exactly like you'd do it on a flute or whistle and have it sound good. I do see how this might be a problem on an anglo.

 

The question isn't about making them sound good. A cran or a 4 note fake roll sound just fine, but if you listen carefully, it will sound somewhat distinct from a true roll. Now if you are claiming that you have heard concertina players play true rolls, I would like to know whose so I can listen to them myself.

 

Again, perhaps it's an anglo specific thing you're talking about, that's why we disagree. On flute & whistle there is no up and down thing going on, it's all on one note (if you can hear the cut & tip well enough to get a sense of their pitch you're playing them way too long, at least that's how I learned em). On an english concertina I think a short roll done by repeatedly hitting the same button sounds very much like a short roll on a flute.

 

Nope, not Anglo specific. I learned how to play rolls on a Button Accordion and on a Tin Whistle before I ever picked up a concertina (never got far on the whistle, guess the instrument was too inexpensive for me ;)). When ever I hear good players play the button accordion or the flute or a fiddle, I can't identify the specific pitch, but I can tell that they are different than the note that is being rolled.

 

--

Bil

Edited by bill_mchale
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I fear I'm not qualified to debate the fine points of terminology so I'll not try to publicly categorize this combination, but returning to the original question I have a favorite sequence for the "E" in question when played on an Anglo.

 

On the push and all with the left hand, I play EGEDE, with the "E" and "G" on the C row and the "D" on the G row (same button as the F#). It takes a lot of practice to get a good fast flow (at least it did for me) but I find it works. Sometimes I drop the middle E from the sequence (depending my inclination of the moment) so I end up with just EGDE, which is an easier sequence and to my mind better suited to some tunes.

 

I've never felt a need to do anything with the "F" other than throwing in an occasional FAF combination, perhaps not quite weighted as an even timed "triplet" though, and my application of that sequence is usually spontaneous rather than pre-planned for a particular phase of a tune. I don't know if it's the tune selections I've made, the keys I play in or the nature of Irish music in general, but I don't often find myself lingering on an "F" long enough that I think it would benefit from additional decoration.

Edited by Bruce McCaskey
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my understanding is that if the ornament consists of the same note repeated however many times, this would not fit the definition of a roll.

 

i like to call three repetitions of the same note a "same-note triplet" to distinguish it from the ascending, descending, or other triplet. what i call a "same-note triplet" would be a lot like a bowed triplet on the fiddle.

 

accordionists also sometimes call you-all's "fake roll" a "half roll." to the orthodox comholtas types who insist that the tipperary/joe burke-style blizzard of five-note full rolls is THE ONLY "RIGHT" way to play b/c box, "half rolls" seem to be looked down upon. however, i personally loathe the sound of full rolls on the accordion and use either the disgraceful half rolls, which i love the sound of, or simply same-note triplets (sometimes with a little cut from a higher note, as someone here mentioned, sometimes not).

 

on concertina, however, i do love the sound of full rolls, which you can do in surprisingly numerous instances, and which can sound like imperceptible little clicks a la fiddle rolls, unlike full accordion rolls, which to me sound like the sleigh bells of reindeer as they thunder over the tundra. so where i can, on concertina i do full rolls, or else same-note triplets, again, alone or with a groovy little cut from a higher note. it does seem to be true that full rolls are not usually used on concertina. not sure why....

 

well, here's a theory: i believe the full capabilities of anglo concertinas may not be fully appreciated yet in irish music at least, due to lingering paradigms inherited from the days of more limited concertinas with fewer notes and substandard action. even most "cross-row" players seem to depart from the rows far less than one might if approaching the potential fingering with a clean conceptual slate rather than an "on the rows" orientation. if you had no "on the rows" patterns in mind, and approached anglo more like somebody who is learning bandoneon, where there are no "rows" and the orientation is instead triads, arpeggios and scale pathways in different permutations and directions, it is mind-blowing what the anglo can do....

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