Travel

[DavidFR]

for those of you who "object to being inconvenienced like this"......that stance may change if the day comes when you are viewing tv footage of devastated salvage crews diving for the unidentifiable partial remains of 8 or 10 thousand innocent people after a dozen or so commercial jetliners detonate over the ocean. the horrific implications of these events go just a wee tad beyond inconvenience to concertina geeks.

I don't know if I would call it being "incovenienced," but I might choose not to fly rather than check my concertina, as it was significantly more expensive than most plane tickets.

 

Politics can be a very divisive topic of discussion. Therefore, all I will say is that it doesn't look like our current policies - mid-East or otherwise - are doing much to discourage further terrorist attempts and plotting.

 

My concertina did well in the car on a Morris tour from Massachusetts to upstate New York down through Maryland and back. Though I do always recommend a hard case, not a soft case, as a result of that trip.

[Woody]

....detailed lists.....

In my experience, the one thing Civil Servants never have any problem producing is paperwork.

 

...thousands of clear plastic carrier bags....

Tescos 24-hr

 

...printed posters...

Cafepress.com

 

....was it just a coincidence that the airports were thrown into total confusion 24 hours AFTER 'our Tony' had left the UK on his hols?

You don't think he uses airports like us plebs do you? It's RAF Brize Norton for the likes of him - carry on as much handluggage as you like

[RatFace]

We (you) are not alone.

 

Utterly ridiculous, in my opinion. This policy results in, at best, a tiny tiny increase in flight safety (so, instead people will perhaps drive across Europe... which may well lead to a few serious/fatal car accidents). The cost is, quite apart from the inconvenience and financial cost, a huge increase in stress, mistrust and general feeling that "foreigners" are out to get us. I thought security checks at airports were meant to detect bad things in hand-luggage - so this policy seems to suggest those checks are ineffectual (I'm sure they're not).

[Bruce McCaskey]

I had the pleasure of meeting Animaterra in Seattle today. Knowing something of her schedule for the day I spotted her at the Pike Place Public Market near where a favorite tourist activity is watching the fishmongers toss fish from its display area to the wrapping/bagging location. Signs in the area warn people to watch out for "flying fish."

 

I persuaded her to spend a few minutes demonstrating her concertina talents and we even played a few tunes together. It was great listening to her and looking back, I only wish I'd spent less time playing so that I could have heard more of her.

 

She reports that her airport experiences weren’t fun but she is doing well today and enjoying her time in the Seattle area.

 

Bruce

[Stephen Chambers]

If you take a look at the BBC website, there is an article on how the Cabin baggage ban hits musicians , to which the public can add their Comments.

[Chris Timson]

for those of you who "object to being inconvenienced like this"......that stance may change if the day comes when you are viewing tv footage of devastated salvage crews diving for the unidentifiable partial remains of 8 or 10 thousand innocent people after a dozen or so commercial jetliners detonate over the ocean. the horrific implications of these events go just a wee tad beyond inconvenience to concertina geeks.

Yeah, maybe, but I do just wonder how many rights we have to give up before the terrorists win by default and our western civilisation becomes indistinguishable from a dictatorship.

 

If you think about them, many of these restrictions make little sense. Pan Am flight 103 demonstrates that just shoving stuff in the hold doesn't necessarily make it more secure.

 

Chris

[Leo]

Yeah, maybe, but I do just wonder how many rights we have to give up before the terrorists win by default and our western civilisation becomes indistinguishable from a dictatorship.

 

If you think about them, many of these restrictions make little sense. Pan Am flight 103 demonstrates that just shoving stuff in the hold doesn't necessarily make it more secure.

 

Chris

 

Chris

All of them. Travel is not a right, it's become a privelige.

 

Ah but we're already there, it's perfect sense. The logic of maximum exposure of not allowing foods, and normal items on a plane and still allowing the electrical initiator (disposable camera flash) eludes me. Punishing the many for the sins of the few always works if the "plan" is to put on a good show only, afer all look at all the work we're doing (good guys). Now there isn't a necessity to throw the world into a tizzy by actually carrying out a threat. Just the threat alone will do it. Sacrifice a couple of underlings and then rejoice at the outcome as the world shakes (bad guys). Mission accomplished.

 

I understand the arrests were made miles from an airport, and days or even weeks before the plan was implemented. So the plot was foiled before any damage (Thankfully, but isn't that how it's supposed to be?). The first version was to have been thought out in the early 90's. They've been watching these guys for a while? OK tell the world where the information came from?? I suspect retaliation will be swift. Baffles the mind. Now we can allow "them" (bad guys) to implement plan c, d, or whatever version will come next, and there will be a new version.

 

For our purposes of fast travel even naked flights under the guise of "safe and secure" won't work. Maybe coming soon? The time for me to look good in approved "travel speedo and sandals" has long past (look for recomended travel attire in my last post: page 2 post 26 of this thread), although I guess it would make the trip go fast as everyone is laughing at everyone else. Makes me shudder.

 

I suspect there will be a campaign soon to not allow toilets next, since that is where the components were supposed to be mixed?? After all then they won't have a place to do the dirty deed.

 

I'd like to submit that we should arm the passengers. It would change the odds to 100 to 500 "good guys" against 5 to 10 "baddies", instead of 10 "baddies" against 100 to 500 frightened, passive people wondering if someone will do something on their behalf. (other than shoot us down before we get over land). Good guys and bad guys trying to kill me either way doesn't make me feel more secure. If there are 100 agencies working on my behalf, I would like to be 101.

 

If they are out to get me, then I guess it's real and I'm not paranoid??

 

Again appologise for the rant, but Chris is right on

 

Thanks: Partially tongue in cheek, but not all. You decide which parts.

 

By the way I'm a concertina geek, and proud of it. I attempt to play a concertina. Working my way up to mediocre skills at best, but it's coming. Just thought I'd mention it since this is concertina.net. I would not consider any of this topic political in nature, considering the vast majority of the participants to be professional musicians, and it cuts right through their ability to feed their families and I consider that to be appropriate.

 

Leo

Edited August 13, 2006 by Leo

[Woody]

Is it me or do the majority of opinions posted on this topic suffer from a heavy dose of self interest? I'm sure there are some of us badly affected by these restrictions, but unless they stay in place for a long time they're unlikely to impact most of us.

 

Please also bear in mind that the problems this brings for Concertina players are the sort of issues that players of larger instruments have had to deal with for years. Sure, before this you could have bought an extra seat if you play Cello, Guitar or whatever - but only if you have enough money. For the majority of us with bigger instruments it's been the case for years that you either don't take it, or it goes in the hold.

 

As for Concertinas going in aircraft holds - where do you think they go when they're sent internationally by post or courier? Do you think they're treated any better when sent by these methods? Perhaps the solution until the restrictions are relaxed is to follow the advice in Alex Jones' excellent article on Packing a Concertina for Shipping and take out some extra insurance?

 

 

- W

[Dirge]

Of course it's self interest Woody but that doesn't invalidate an opinion. One important reason for me abandoning the piano accordian for the duet was portability. I used to leave the accordian behind on foreign holidays.

 

The moment the politicians went for this stupidity the terrorists had won. They didn't actually need to have killed anyone to create alarm and despondancy and generate publicity. Sympathisers will be lookng on and thinking 'Well our boys may have been caught but look, they're running round like headless chickens!' Blair handed them a victory on a plate.

 

The way you beat these people is you don't let them shake you out of your daily routine more than absolutely necessary. Treat them with the contempt they deserve and move on. It was a disgrace having a silence to commemorate the London bombings. It's not the British way and, again, it would be meat and drink to anyone contemplating the way of a suicide bomber. ("Look they're still reeling from it a year later!") More encouragement for Al Qu'aida supporters from TB esq.

[Woody]

Of course it's self interest Woody but that doesn't invalidate an opinion. One important reason for me abandoning the piano accordian for the duet was portability. I used to leave the accordian behind on foreign holidays.

 

The way you beat these people is you don't let them shake you out of your daily routine more than absolutely necessary.......

 

I don't think for most people that this is much of an inconvenience. You'll get business travellers bleating about needing laptops - but data can be shoved round the world at the drop of a hat - and laptops are shipped by air all the time - it's just a question of packing them properly. Parents will have a worse time travelling with kids - but that's not much fun anyway so no great change there. Some musicans will be inconvenienced, but from the wider public perception I doubt that many care a great deal about that. You can't take your instrument on holiday - well that's a shame but not a great threat to Democracy (I hope ).

 

 

I doubt we're going to agree about this. I'll just ask a simple question.....

 

Given the arrests and the plot (assuming for the moment that it turns out to all be true), if the security officials and politicians had decided to carry on as per normal - what would be the reaction if another terrorist using the same methods got on a plane a few days later and blew it up? The security officials and politicians would be crucified for not taking all possible steps to combat a known threat - and quite rightly too. If you were the person making the decisions - would you or should you be willing to take that gamble?

 

 

- W

[Theodore Kloba]

Is it me or do the majority of opinions posted on this topic suffer from a heavy dose of self interest?

I never begrudge anyone acting in self-interest. Acting for the benefit of others, or for the common good is an ideal we aspire to, something we encourage. The moment it becomes a requirement, you have to submit to someone else's idea of what the public interest really is.

 

Definitely the people most seriously affected are those who have already made travel plans or are already traveling. For those about to plan, it's just another factor to affect your decision regarding how (whether) to travel.

I'm sure there are some of us badly affected by these restrictions, but unless they stay in place for a long time they're unlikely to impact most of us.

And by not concerning ourselves with those more badly affected, we're acting in self-interest...

Please also bear in mind that the problems this brings for Concertina players are the sort of issues that players of larger instruments have had to deal with for years.

I think it's just the surprise-- people with small instruments have to make an adjustment to their routine, and maybe purchase a flight case.

You'll get business travellers bleating about needing laptops - but data can be shoved round the world at the drop of a hat

They're probably bleating because their superiors are expecting them to actually complete some tasks with that laptop while they're in transit.

You can't take your instrument on holiday - well that's a shame but not a great threat to Democracy (I hope ).

Well if your whole family are musicians (as are mine) and are strewn across a continent (as are mine), taking away their instruments during visits has the psychic effect of making them wear burqas. No they didn't have to move so far away, but when they did move, air travel was easier.

The security officials and politicians would be crucified for not taking all possible steps to combat a known threat - and quite rightly too.

Almost rightly. They should take all appropriate steps. I think the main reason people object is that it's hard to imagine that the implemented security measures are really appropriate and effective. Maybe they truly are appropriate, but it's hard to imagine how.

 

On US domestic flights, they have banned gel insoles in shoes. Why not just train security staff how to tell when the cushioning gel has been replaced with an explosive agent?

Edited August 13, 2006 by Theodore Kloba

[JimLucas]

Parents will have a worse time travelling with kids - but that's not much fun anyway....

What an insult to all the bright, delightful, wonderfully behaved children with whom I've had the pleasure of sharing flights and other forms of transportation!

Edited August 13, 2006 by JimLucas

[bellowbelle]

My (adult) daughter made it home safely on August 1st, from Spain to London to Boston, via British Airways. One of her friends, though, is to fly home on August 16th, and it was reported that THAT was the actual day that the terrorists were planning their big attack. Nerve-wracking.

 

It gets kind of close to home, these days, terrorism, and so....those of us affected can be too 'worried' or whatever to think much about perfect protocol when posting in the forum, maybe!

 

Me, I don't fly places anyway. But, I am becoming strange about using some imported products that I've grown to like.

 

My daughter (a drummer, not a concertina player...and yes, she found a drum circle in Madrid) even went up to Bilbao, in the Basque part of Spain.

 

I have appreciated getting a glimpse of the music scene in Spain. They seem more accepting of free-reed instruments, for sure, than in the USA....or, maybe just more familiar with them.

 

And, I know that nothing will stop my daughter from getting on a plane to go back there, when she wants to do so. Not even a threat of terrorism. So, I am glad that our airports at least TRY to take security measures. I'm sure it seems ineffective at times, but -- we must at least try.

 

And maybe I'll move to Spain someday...it's become too cold here in the winter...but I have to be able to take my dog and all that, so....might be a slow boat ride, for me!

[Woody]

Parents will have a worse time travelling with kids - but that's not much fun anyway....

What an insult to all the bright, delightful, wonderfully behaved children with whom I've had the pleasure of sharing flights and other forms of transportation!

You're a very lucky man.

 

Seriously though - what I'm referring to is all the things it's useful to carry to keep them entertained and the general strain of travelling with young children - particularly on long intercontinental flights.

 

 

....people with small instruments have to make an adjustment to their routine, and maybe purchase a flight case.

Flight cases are probably not good enough in themselves. I'm trying to track down something I read on the web about an orchestra that got some special cases made for putting delicate instruments in the hold. They have heavy duty hard flight cases with the instruments in. They then have soft cases - like heavy duty waterproof gig bags - that fit over the hard case to give a lot of extra shock protection. Nothings perfect but they seem to have shipped instruments around the world without breakages using this system.

Edited August 13, 2006 by Woody

[Paul Woloschuk]

Flight cases are probably not good enough in themselves.

A proper flight case is perfectly suited...after all, the clue's in the name I once had an Oberheim synthesizer (not a cheap instrument by any means) in a 'Bulldog' flight case whacked into by a passing car whilst the roadie was crossing a road between parked cars - no damage at all to the instrument nor to the case.....a smashed headlight and dented front wing on the car!

A good flight case is not cheap - but the're certainly worth it if you're planning on travelling frequently.

 

On the first page of this thread I said ".... I had to send my accordion as check-in baggage ........I packed the instrument in it's hard case, and that, in turn, was put into a large cardboard box with polystyrene sheets on all sides (the box was obtained from the dealer I'd bought the instrument from) and clearly labeled it as 'FRAGILE - Musical Instrument'."

 

This was how it was packed and transported from the factory in Italy to the dealer in London - ok, that would probably have been in a truck, but my point was - if it is to go in the hold of a plane - originally in response to the question asked at the start of this thread, but laterly because of recent developments - then get insurance and pack it adequately - a flight case if you can afford it, but a good sturdy cardboard box and shock-proof packaging is better than nothing.

[Woody]

Flight cases are probably not good enough in themselves. I'm trying to track down something I read on the web about an orchestra that got some special cases made for putting delicate instruments in the hold. They have heavy duty hard flight cases with the instruments in. They then have soft cases - like heavy duty waterproof gig bags - that fit over the hard case to give a lot of extra shock protection. Nothings perfect but they seem to have shipped instruments around the world without breakages using this system.

 

This is the site I was thinking of - no endorsement intended but you get the idea.

 

 

I've just checked my insurance policy with regard to air travel - it says the following....

 

Q: Is my instrument insured if I take it on an aircraft?

 

A: Yes but you must put it in a suitable protective case and we would strongly recommend that you take it as hand luggage. Damage caused by changes in air pressure or atmosperic conditions, or by extremes of temperature, are not covered. On arrival (and before you leave the airport) check the instrument carefully. This will minimise the risk of damage due to poor baggage handling or possible deterioration due to fluctuating temepratures in the aircraft hold. If you discover any damage, lodge a formal complaint with the airline and complete a property irregularity report (make sure you obtain a reference number).

 

 

- W

 

edited by Woody to correct slepping

and again to korrect sum mor

Edited August 13, 2006 by Woody

[Woody]

A proper flight case is perfectly suited...after all, the clue's in the name

 

I don't know about other instruments but certainly the web is littered with reports from guitarists saying how standard flight cases have failed to protect their instruments.

[ceemonster]

again.....the tenor of this discussion would be very different if a couple of dozen planeloads of innocent people had fallen from the skies last week. i certainly share the skepticism as to the efficacy of many of the recently instituted restrictions. even further, i feel strongly that both the authorities and the "inconvenienced" travelers are in some pretty extreme denial as to the kind & degree of measures that actually might have a chance of making a difference to flight security between now and such time as we can develop vastly more sophisticated screening/detecting technology. (at present, for example, just for starters, restriction one might be, zero cellphone, laptop, or other electronic/battery-operated devices on the plane save for flight purposes, in cargo or as carry-on---and again, that would be just for starters). there has been a lot of bluster and political bloviating on this thread, and fair play. but just as you would never again hear the asinine pronouncement "terrorists can't keep me from my normal life" the day after a radiation or nuclear device detonated in a major city and killed a couple hundred thousand people, by the same token, if several dozen planes fell out of the sky one fine day, phrases like "terrorists can't keep me from flying" would not be flung around as they are now. people seem not to have realized that one of the many awful implications of last week's events is that we are teetering on the brink of an era where those things may become reality. and if that era arrives, the petulant whines of inconvenienced concertina geeks will look decadent and embarrassing in the history books. last week one of the many news reports out of lebanon had a quote from a civilian resident of a bombed out part of lebanon saying, "this is what it is like to experience history." a bunch of new orleans citizens experienced history last year. fellow geeks, we can only pray that our big historical experience may be the inconvenience of not being able to take a concertina on an airplane.