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Secure For Seller


wakasaobama

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Dear alisummers

 

I don't want to interfere your auction.

I want my safety. Jeffries is very expensive.

But, I can't see the seller.

I can't see you are man or lady.

When I decide to buy, most important things are "your words".

So I worry about your words "secure of me".

 

Your 38 keys is very good. Of course I still want to buy 38 keys.

I wish your concertina will go to good home. :)

 

wakasaobama

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Dear alisummers

 

PS. Paypal fee is very high. It's need 3.4% fee. :blink:

If you get 5000USD, you must pay 170 USD to Paypal.

 

PS2.Now I send you message. It is my proposal for my safety dealing.

If you don't mind, I will bid your auction. :)

 

thank you

 

wakasaobama

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I'm sorry if that's how you interpreted my response, because it's not what I intended. I merely meant to illulstrate that the issues are more complex than might seem, and the "facts" one obtains can be contradictory.

 

I'm not sure how else I could have interpreted it but I accept that that's not what you intended & you are correct that it's always good to do your own research and make your own mind up.

 

 

...When a post or a PM is "too long" -- though still shorter than the character limit it tells you that you have -- it refuses to format the quoting even when it's right.

 

It seems to be down to the number of "quote" statements you have in your post.

 

 

I find it hard to believe ANYTHING positive about Paypal, Woodie. And what's Worldpay? Are they lesser robbers than paypal?

Hi David,

 

I don't intend to defend or attack Paypal - it is what it is. I've used it regularly and have no complaints - your mileage may vary. Worldpay is one of many companies that process secure credit and debit card transactions for businesses large and small - ensuring neither has access to the other's banking/card info.

 

 

I don't really want to get into the small details of Demand Draft fraud, it was just an example chosen at random to show the possible implications of giving away sensitive information - have a search on the Internet and you'll find loads of examples of the various ways your banking information can be fruadulently exploited detailed on websites run by Governments, Police, Banks etc... I was just trying to provide an obvious legitimate reason why Ali might not want to give out her personal banking information, but before I leave this I will address a few of Jim's points....

 

The first thing I'd note is that that report is 10 years old....

 

Which is exactly the reason why I provided links to another 11 more recent sources discussing this in detail - which for some reason you seem to have ignored :blink:

 

But there are also protections. It should not be necessary to provide all your account information to receive an electronic transfer.

 

You might think that, however the information required seems to vary.....

 

from State Department Federal Credit Union at http://www.sdfcu.org/products/wire.html

 

The following information is required to complete an outgoing wire transfer:

 

* US Dollar Amount

* Name of US Bank

* 9 Digit Bank Number (ABA or Routing Number)

* City and State

* Name of Person or Company Receiving Funds

* Account Number Where Funds Will Be Deposited

* Complete Mailing Address of Recipient

 

Overseas Wire Transfers in US Dollars- In Addition To Above Information

* Name of Overseas Bank

* SWIFT Number (if available)

* City and County

 

 

or from Chase bank at http://www.chase.com/cm/cs?pagename=Chase/...s#wirefundsinfo

What information do I need to wire funds?

To wire money, you will first need to register for the service and then set your beneficiaries or recipients. To set up whom you want to pay, you will need the following information from the Recipient: name, account number, address, city, region, country and postal zip code.

 

or from United Mississippi Bank at http://www.unitedmsbk.com/prodOther.cfm

 

Information needed for an outdoing wire transfer includes the following:

• Your name, physical address and account number

• Your phone number

• Your social security number

• Destination bank name and physical address

• Beneficiary name, physical address and account number

 

 

 

From the Florida Attorney General's Office at http://myfloridalegal.com/pages.nsf/main/b...33;OpenDocument
it is put on a "demand draft" and sent to the bank for payment. The draft contains your name, account number, and the amount, but does not require your signature.

I believe that legally, it does require your signature, at the very least on some paper on file with the bank in which you have authorized them to honor demand drafts. If you have not filled out and signed such a paper, then for the bank to honor a demand draft on your account is illegal. If you don't know whether you've signed such a paper, go check with your bank. If you have, without realizing what it was, insist on withdrawing the authorization.

 

From a personal point I can say that I have received about 7 or 8 telephone calls over the last 2 years trying to get banking and address details over the phone in the exact way desribed in the references I listed. I don't know about the details of how they would access funds, but I assume that if loads of separate law enforcement bodies are giving these warnings it's probably because they think that there's a problem. I choose to defer to their judgement.

 

 

The real danger these days doesn't lie in identifying one's account, but in giving out the associated security information: passwords, PIN codes, and the like....

 

My understanding is the opposite - that because protections on these types of information and on credit cards are improving, and because people are becoming more aware of the danger of giving out such information, it's driving fraudsters to employ more sophisticated identity theft techniques.

 

 

I trust my banks to protect me from such abuse.

 

I'm pleased for you :) I don't have any such faith in mine :angry:

 

 

- W

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I don't really want to get into the small details of Demand Draft fraud, it was just an example chosen at random to show the possible implications of giving away sensitive information - have a search on the Internet and you'll find loads of examples of the various ways your banking information can be fruadulently exploited detailed on websites run by Governments, Police, Banks etc... I was just trying to provide an obvious legitimate reason why Ali might not want to give out her personal banking information,...

Fair enough. But please note that I didn't claim the problem doesn't exist. I claim that it shouldn't exist in that form (i.e., without the disclosure of additional security-code information), and that if/where it does exist, it's because the bank (or at least a bank employee) is violating proper procedures. And that for that reason, its success should be rare. (If all banks honored all demand drafts without checking for proper authorization, don't you think identity theft would be even more common?)

 

...but before I leave this I will address a few of Jim's points....
The first thing I'd note is that that report is 10 years old....
Which is exactly the reason why I provided links to another 11 more recent sources discussing this in detail - which for some reason you seem to have ignored :blink:

But then why bother with the first, out of date one? And in particular, why put it first? Actually, I ignored the others because I didn't want to get involved in a big back-and-forth over individual web postings, and I suspect that you don't, either.

 

But there are also protections. It should not be necessary to provide all your account information to receive an electronic transfer.
You might think that, however the information required seems to vary.....

[details of a couple of examples elided]

Ah, I do remember now that although my American bank has IBAN registration, they didn't regularly use it. But after I discussed it with them, they were able to locate the information and to use the IBAN codes (in both directions) in place of the less-detailed SWIFT codes accompanied by that other information.

 

The US in general seems well behind Denmark in the use of secure electronic banking. Checks are accepted here, but rarely used... so rarely that I haven't written a single check in more than 10 years here.

 

From a personal point I can say that I have received about 7 or 8 telephone calls over the last 2 years trying to get banking and address details over the phone in the exact way desribed in the references I listed. I don't know about the details of how they would access funds, but I assume that if loads of separate law enforcement bodies are giving these warnings it's probably because they think that there's a problem. I choose to defer to their judgement.

I'm told that another common procedure is -- or at least used to be -- for them to raid suburban mailboxes on the day when bank statements arrive, since the bank statement includes all that information.

 

Well, law enforcement bodies, like many other people and groups, often -- though not always, of course -- repeat each other without doing independent research. That doesn't necessarily mean that what they repeat is wrong. In the case of identity theft, I do believe that there's a problem, though I'm not clear how much of it is due to giving out the mentioned bank-account details. To my understanding, far more identity fraud is based on foolish responses to email and web-site scams, where people either give out things like security passwords or let keystroke-loggers get installed on their computers. And another big source of potential identity theft is financial institutions violating their own security guidelines and even federal laws, as when the news reports that credit card security data on millions of individuals has been stolen from a system which was not supposed to be recording that information in the first place. :angry:

 

There's risk everywhere. At issue is how much and from what sources? Woody, there's one more thing I want to say, but I think it could be considered "political", so I'll contact you off-Forum with that comment. B)

 

The real danger these days doesn't lie in identifying one's account, but in giving out the associated security information: passwords, PIN codes, and the like....
My understanding is the opposite - that because protections on these types of information and on credit cards are improving, and because people are becoming more aware of the danger of giving out such information, it's driving fraudsters to employ more sophisticated identity theft techniques.

As in the latest Microsoft security problem? (They hope to have it fixed in a couple of weeks, or maybe less.) A PowePoint presentation (received in an email, most likely) that when opened seems innocuous, but installs a keystroke logger and a "backdoor" on your computer, so that someone somewhere across the internet could take complete control of your computer and can read every character you enter, including passwords, e.g., when you make a credit card purchase or log on to your bank... or PayPal.

 

I trust my banks to protect me from such abuse.
I'm pleased for you :) I don't have any such faith in mine :angry:

Have you looked into other banks? When you approach them, ask them about protection against demand drafts. For that matter, you should probably ask your current bank how they handle demand draft requests.

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I warried about you were absent from 2005 winter to 2006 spring.

I'm glad to meet you again on C. net.

Many thanks for your concern, it's appreciated, but fortunately it was only my computer that died, not myself. :lol:

 

Glad to meet you again too! :)

 

PayPal is actually much safer for the buyer than it is for the seller, and even more so if the PayPal payment is funded by your credit card. If there is a problem you can complain to PayPal, who will intervene and may refund you, or failing that your credit card might issue a refund.
I think PayPal Buyer Protection is up to (only) 500USD.

Most Jeffries price is over 5000USD.

So, I think Paypal is not safe.

PayPal will only guarantee the transaction for $500, but they have a dispute process if there is a problem and (failing a mutually agreed resolution) will intervene and put pressure on the seller to make a refund, or even do so themselves out of his/her PayPal account if funds are there.

 

But my main point was that if you make a PayPal payment by credit card, and you fail to get a full refund through PayPal, then most credit card companies will issue a refund themselves. (Though as I said, banking practices vary widely, so I don't know if your bank in Japan would do this.)

 

I'm jealous my daughter, because she knows concertina before birth.

But when I knew concertina, I was 41 years old. :(

Children can make music look very easy, but it's a big encouragement for them when a parent plays an instrument. I wish I'd had such encouragement/lessons when I was a child! :(

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...but before I leave this I will address a few of Jim's points....
The first thing I'd note is that that report is 10 years old....
Which is exactly the reason why I provided links to another 11 more recent sources discussing this in detail - which for some reason you seem to have ignored :blink:

But then why bother with the first, out of date one? And in particular, why put it first?

 

Because the procedure is unaltered and this site gave an excellent description. Given that it is at the US Federal Trade Commision site and is part of a report given to the US Senate House Banking Committee it can also be considered reasonably worth consideration.

 

Actually, I ignored the others....

As detailed in my post, the other sites were mainly various States' Attorney General's Office sites - perhaps it would have been better if you could have checked the contents of one or two before questioning the validity of the information I extracted from the FTC report?

 

 

There's risk everywhere.

 

Absolutely and unavoidable. However risk exposure can be managed through knowledge.

 

.....installs a keystroke logger and a "backdoor" on your computer, so that someone somewhere across the internet could take complete control of your computer and can read every character you enter, including passwords, e.g., when you make a credit card purchase or log on to your bank... or PayPal.

 

Absolutely - see previous comment.

 

 

Have you looked into other banks? When you approach them, ask them about protection against demand drafts. For that matter, you should probably ask your current bank how they handle demand draft requests.

 

I don't think this particular problem applies in the UK. We have "Direct Debit" and "Standing Order" both of which provide notification to the account holder, require signatures and have legislated guarantees - but as I have said several times, this is just one of the many ways such information can be abused. Personally I don't have "faith" in any bank as it is only as good as it's security systems, and all such systems can be breached.

 

 

Finally I will say this once again.....

 

wakasaobama asked why somebody might legitimately not want to give out the information required for a Wire Transfer. Identity Theft is one such legitimate reason.

 

- W

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Rather than quote anyone in particular, just a few comments on the US banking system.

 

What was mentioned as being required for an outgoing wire transfer is correct, including account number, routing number, addresses and SWIFT numbers. This is the result of various legislation including the Bank Secrecy Act and the Patriot Act(s). Both are designed to provide a certain transparency and paper trail for law enforcement to track down money launderers and terrorists. (Note - I'm just explaining facts, NOT giving my opinion on the rightness or wrongness of any of this legislation).

 

Giving out your account number and routing number CAN make you a victim of identity theft and/or fraud. However, banks are only legally supposed to process transactions for which you have given them due authorization as described in your account agreement. You are not liable (beyond a certain amount) for unauthorized transactions to your account, including demand debits. This is covered in the Check 21 act and other electronic funds transfer legislation. The bank is responsible for unauthorized debits to your account, though it may be a real hassle to get it back. Some banks are not very nice.

 

This does not cover you, for instance, if you fall into a Nigerian check scam. If you deposit a forged/false check and then wire money out before it clears (and comes back as a forgery), YOU and you alone are responsible for that loss and any associated fees. Always talk to your customer service people if you have any questions at all about the legitimacy of a transaction/item. And make sure you bank at a good bank if at all possible ;).

 

Jim, it is true that most of Europe (my only experience is with Germany) have largely eliminated checks in favor of free/cheap electronic transfer options. It remains relatively expensive here, though there is movement in that direction. It also remains questionable which is better - with a check you have a better paper trail and more recourse I think if things go wrong.

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Well, I see the concertina has gone for over 4200 pounds, in a quite exciting flurry of late bidding. Bad luck, Wakasaobama, but it seems the Irish in particular (making a flimsy guess based on the buyer's handle) have a love affair with the Jeffries name surpassing mere money!

 

Chris

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I just stumbled onto this and thought it might be of interest to Ebayers and similar in the light of this discussion. It's from the US Federal Trade Commission and dated March 2006, and it discusses several issues regarding auction sites including payment.

 

- W

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Well, I see the concertina has gone for over 4200 pounds, in a quite exciting flurry of late bidding.

Yes, I watched for the last couple of minutes. Now, I wonder how much the "restoration" will actually cost.

 

Regards,

Peter.

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Ah, I do remember now that although my American bank has IBAN registration, they didn't regularly use it. But after I discussed it with them, they were able to locate the information and to use the IBAN codes (in both directions) in place of the less-detailed SWIFT codes accompanied by that other information.

 

I very much doubt if using IBAN codes would help. I have just had a look at mine and its very simply built up from my account number and sort code with a few other letters and numbers which I guess identify the country. So giving someone your IBAN code provides exactly the same information as giving your account number and sort code!

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I very much doubt if using IBAN codes would help. I have just had a look at mine and its very simply built up from my account number and sort code with a few other letters and numbers which I guess identify the country. So giving someone your IBAN code provides exactly the same information as giving your account number and sort code!

Yes, but it does not include your name and address, nor other information that might be needed to initiate an outgoing payment.

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I should just add my own experience with direct bank to bank transfers. For me they have worked wery well both ways, that is paying and receiving money. I spend some time on ebay.de and it seems that most German sellers actually prefer direct bank transfer to paypal. At least the melodeon sellers I've dealt with, and it's worked smoothly. I do agree with Jim that giving out your bank details such as IBAN address or SWIFT code does not enable anybody to withdraw money or make any payment from your account. The information only works for putting in money to the account.

 

Cheers

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I very much doubt if using IBAN codes would help. I have just had a look at mine and its very simply built up from my account number and sort code with a few other letters and numbers which I guess identify the country.

 

From Natwest Commercial Banking page on IBAN

 

* The IBAN is a series of alphanumeric characters that uniquely identifies an account held at a bank

* Most countries have standard account numbering systems. For example, in the UK, an account number can be specified by a bank code, a branch sort code and an 8-digit account number

* An IBAN is not replacing the national numbering systems. It is a way of representing national account numbers in an internationally recognised standard format

* An IBAN adds a country code and check digits to the front of the domestic account number format

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... it seems the Irish in particular (making a flimsy guess based on the buyer's handle) have a love affair with the Jeffries name surpassing mere money!

And judging by his previous eBay "handle" darachoconchubhair (he changed it only before he bid), this particular Jeffries enamorato is probably named Darach O'Connor? :unsure:

 

It looks to be a nice "honest" instrument, in original condition, hopefully a restorer's dream. :) (Rather than the "nightmares" people keep bringing to me to fix these days! :o)

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... it seems that most German sellers actually prefer direct bank transfer ...

That would be my experience too, though not always the case (especially with sellers in eastern Germany). But I'm afraid the banking system here in Ireland isn't really geared up for it, and frustratingly I have to fill in a form, to hand in at my bank, in order to make a transfer, I can't do it electronically. :(

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Well, I see the concertina has gone for over 4200 pounds, in a quite exciting flurry of late bidding.

I tried to bid last few minutes, but I could not bid the auction. :(

I think the price 4200 GBP is top price during 3 years on ebay. :blink:

 

wakasaobama

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