Tuning Systems

[Theodore Kloba]

I figured this thread was drifting away from the English Trad. where it started, so I renamed...

and there is absolutely no need for these crazy speeds

I came across something interesting today while reading about tuning & temperaments:

 

The composer Terry Riley, said "Western music is fast because it's not in tune", meaning that its inherent beating forces motion.

 

So maybe players who race through their playng are not suffering from youth or indiscipline, but rather from equal-tempered tuning. Maybe we should retune our instruments to some historic tunings and we'll slow down.

An interesting thought, and I much prefer the sound of those old temperaments (and have sometimes tuned concertinas to them), especially on a good Jeffries that has never been altered (like Paul Davis' old Bb/F "street box" that he used for busking); you can really relish playing the chords, whereas in equal-tempered tuning they sound "restless". Maybe the latter is a metaphor for modern life?

but equal temperament has a purpose,as youknow if your tuned in mean temperament the further you get away from the home key the more out of tune it becomes,so even tunes like The GalwayHornpipe that modulate, soundpretty awful.Steve dickinson once pointed out to me that the most out of tune interval in equal temperament ,was the major third so if you want to avoid the restlessness cut out the major third, use only modal chords best wishes DickMiles

Certainly with English concertina, whose keyboard is mmore amenable to modulation and chromaticity, equal temperament has an important application.

 

What I'm thinking about is a new temperament (or rediscovery of a little-known one) specifically geared to the Anglo and other "diatonic" instruments and the chords one is really likely to play on them, leaving less-well tempered intervals to the chords less likely to happen.

 

Maybe it's even possible to have a different tempering for a particular note, depending on the bellows direction (and therefore the chord it's likely to be a member of).

Edited June 21, 2006 by Theodore Kloba

[JimLucas]

Certainly with English concertina, whose keyboard is mmore amenable to modulation and chromaticity, equal temperament has an important application.

No time to dig up the links now, but various alternative temperaments have been discussed before, also for the English.

 

What I'm thinking about is a new temperament (or rediscovery of a little-known one) specifically geared to the Anglo and other "diatonic" instruments and the chords one is really likely to play on them, leaving less-well tempered intervals to the chords less likely to happen.

Paul Groff is a good person to discuss this with. I remember him once demonstrating to me a variety of anglos tuned in different temperaments, and particular arrangements for each one that sounded better on that one than on any of the others.

 

Maybe it's even possible to have a different tempering for a particular note, depending on the bellows direction (and therefore the chord it's likely to be a member of).

I think that's both possible and reasonable.

[Chris Allert]

i remember discussing this at length a few months ago, and was curious if anyone knew how concertinas were historically tuned. nobody seemed to know since this wasn't documented when these concertinas were being made.

 

i'd guess that a lot of the cheap 20-button german concertinas would have been tuned in a 7-limit just scale relative to G since this is the historic tuning for german C harmonicas. it would give you pure pushing and pulling on the c row, pure pushing on the g-row and mostly pure pulling on the g-row. here's my source for this conjecture:

 

http://www.patmissin.com/tunings/tunings.html

 

but what about 30 button-instruments? does anyone have more information on this old Bb/F box that stephen chambers mentions?

 

and what do we know about english concertina tuning? it seems like one of the "well-temperamants" would be more suitable for them, since these instruments were built with music that would have been written for a well-temperament in mind. has anyone come across anything on this?

 

here's a link to the earlier thread:

 

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2913

[Theodore Kloba]

i'd guess that a lot of the cheap 20-button german concertinas would have been tuned in a 7-limit just scale relative to G since this is the historic tuning for german C harmonicas.

Sounds reasonable.

but what about 30 button-instruments?

That's why I put "diatonic" in quotes. Chemnitzers & Bandoneons are in the same boat.

and what do we know about english concertina tuning? it seems like one of the "well-temperamants" would be more suitable for them, since these instruments were built with music that would have been written for a well-temperament in mind.

Since my original post, I came across this article:

 

http://larips.com/

 

The author believes that what appears merely to be a squiggly decoration on the front page of J.S.Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier is in fact a graphical representation of the "well" temperament Bach intended.

 

Whether it proves to be historically accurate or not, it's an interesting tuning. It will work for any key, but it shows some coloration in all keys.

[Roger Digby]

Chris Allert has asked 'does anyone have more information on this old Bb/F box that Stephen Chambers mentions?'

I am its current owner and I am pretty sure it is the one Fred plays on the archive recordings that I made available for Anglo International. On that collection it is also the concertina I use on 'Over the Rainbow'.

It is the box that I play most, though only at home because its tuning makes it impossible to play with other instruments. It is a sensational instrument, though I have a slight suspicion that Paul perhaps retuned a few reeds to make it more viable as his main busking instrument, so it is perhaps not as 'pure' as Stephen remembers.

The whole issue of temperament is still very unclear in my mind and I agree that Paul Groff has probably more knowledge on this than anybody else with whom I have communicated. I suspect any system of tuning has imperfections. Steve Dickinson, for whom I have total respect and unlimited admiration, describes this instrument of Fred's and Paul's as '..**... out of tune!'

As a player my mind boggles at the expectation of those who tuned in uneven temperament that we players would know and remember which of the differently tuned buttons was right for which keys! I don't believe that the beautiful resonance that uneven temperament creates was intended to exist only in the home keys. The 38/9 button boxes were expected to be played outside the home keys as the hand-produced Jeffries manuals indicate.

Best wishes

Roger

[Stephen Chambers]

Chris Allert has asked 'does anyone have more information on this old Bb/F box that Stephen Chambers mentions?'

I am its current owner and I am pretty sure it is the one Fred plays on the archive recordings that I made available for Anglo International.

'Fraid not Roger, I bought that one at Sotheby's, it was never one of Fred's boxes.

 

You're maybe confusing it with that (matching) superlative G/D you have, which Paul did get from Fred. I always admired that one greatly, and could have bought it, but wouldn't because I don't play Anglo. I'm glad you ended up with it, and the Bb/F.

 

Paul bought his house at Worthing on the proceeds of busking with that "street box"; the sound of it really carries, but it is so rich, deep & sweet that nobody could object to it. We always reckoned it was the perfect pitch & tuning for an Anglo.

 

It was a box that Paul saw in a Sotheby's catalogue before he went away on one of his trips, and left me the money to buy it & instructions to retune it to C/G "concert pitch" before he got back. But when I got it I couldn't believe how good it was, and thought it would be a crime to retune it. When he returned, & played it, he was very glad that I hadn't done as he asked!

 

I believe I have a chart of the original tuning, somewhere ...

 

Edited to add:

 

The instrument Fred is playing on those archive recordings is almost certainly his "best box" which, if I remember rightly, was a 4-row Bb/F.

Edited June 22, 2006 by Stephen Chambers

[Stephen Chambers]

Certainly with English concertina, whose keyboard is more amenable to modulation and chromaticity, equal temperament has an important application.

Ah, but that's why Wheatstone designed the English layout with 14 notes to the octave!

 

You have seperate buttons for both G#/Ab, and for D#/Eb, which would otherwise be "wolf" notes in the tuning.

 

English concertinas were originally only tuned to equal temperament when it became necessary in order to play with a piano, otherwise unequally tempered tuning was preferred.

[ragtimer]

Ah, but that's why Wheatstone designed the English layout with 14 notes to the octave!

 

You have seperate buttons for both G#/Ab, and for D#/Eb, which would otherwise be "wolf" notes in the tuning.

 

English concertinas were originally only tuned to equal temperament when it became necessary in order to play with a piano, otherwise unequally tempered tuning was preferred.

I've always wondered about that, whether any English 'tinas were ever tuned to have separate pitches for G#/Ab and D#/Eb. There are English pipe organs from Handel's time with split keys for those notes.

 

You're the first person I've heard to claim that originally Englsih concertinas were indeed tuned in unequal temperament, with the separate "black" notes. I think that's a great idea.

 

A related question: How unequal could a 'tina's tuning be and still play acceptably with guitar, mandolin, fiddle, flutes (recorders, penny whistles), and other instruments whose pitch isn't quite as nailed-down as the piano's? Those are the isntruments that I, and many others here, play along with.

 

And yes, amny times I wish my Hayden were tuned in meantone -- those major thirds just don't sound clean.

--Mike Knudsen

[Dan Worrall]

Chris Allert has asked 'does anyone have more information on this old Bb/F box that Stephen Chambers mentions?'

I am its current owner and I am pretty sure it is the one Fred plays on the archive recordings that I made available for Anglo International.

'Fraid not Roger, I bought that one at Sotheby's, it was never one of Fred's boxes.

 

You're maybe confusing it with that (matching) superlative G/D you have, which Paul did get from Fred. I always admired that one greatly, and could have bought it, but wouldn't because I don't play Anglo. I'm glad you ended up with it, and the Bb/F.

 

 

Roger kindly allowed me to take measurements of that particular instrument earlier this summer. I have it measured with so many cents plus or minus from equal temperament. Unfortunately, it is also in old pitch. Once I figure out how to do the pitch transformations (!) it is my intent to compare its deviations from equal temperament to various published 'common' unequal temperaments of the nineteenth century, to see which one (if any) fits. I shall share the results here, but don't hold your breath..it may take me a while to get to it. The chords sound really fine on that GD; although they are not beatless, they have a grandness to them.

 

Kimber's music (just using him as an English example) sounds just plain harsh on equal temperament instruments because he plays mostly third intervals, and those thirds sound just awful in ET. The quote that Theodore Kloba came up with fits well with this; to apply that here, you wouldn't want to play Kimber music on an ET instrument at anything but a fevered tempo. I have a feeling that K's first concertina was in some sort of unequal temperament, or else he would have played in a fifths chording style, perhaps. Recently, I retuned one of my concertinas, with accordion reeds, from ET to quarter comma meantone (popular still in the early to middle nineteenth century, especially with organs and church music), to see how it would sound. It has a much better sound for almost any type of chording than ET, in my humble opinion; it is not for nothing that organists were amongst the last holdouts against the ET steamroller in the music world. I know that Wim Wakker likes Young (1799) for late nineteenth century concertinas. Wim points out that it isn't just the chord fundamentals that one needs to watch out for, but how the higher harmonics relate to the harmonics if other notes in the chords as well. That gets beyond my current ken!

 

I also know some members of this forum are playing around with Just tuning, both for pipe-like sound (Irish music) and for Kimber playing (it gives pure thirds, when the CG anglo is only played in C and G). I'm keen to hear how those instruments turn out. As I understand it, Just makes the thirds pure, and in keys very close to the home key, most (but not all) of the commonly played fifths are reasonably close to pure as well.

 

One could make a nice hobby just out of fooling around with old temperaments...if one didn't just descend into madness with the weirdness of it all!

[JimLucas]

You're the first person I've heard to claim that originally Englsih concertinas were indeed tuned in unequal temperament, with the separate "black" notes.

Since I recall learning about that here in this Forum, I suggest a search of the C.net archives. Searching all Discussion Forums for the word "temperament" gave me more than 50 Topics. I don't have time to check them all out, but the following Topic titles look promising:

 

An Instrument With Meantone Tuning

What Is A Well Tempered Concertina?

Unequaly Temper Tuning

Just Intonation Suggestions

Mean Temperament

[Roger Digby]

I posted recently on another thread how easy it is to make simple mistakes. I came down to the computer this morning about to rectify something I said yesterday, having woken up with the total certainty that Paul's 'street box' is not what I'm playing on 'Over the Rainbow'. Mea maxima culpa...yet again! Now Stephen points out that it's not an ex-Kilroy and I realise that I was confusing it with my other Bflat, which I'm certain is ex-Fred and definitely ex-Paul (until Stephen puts me right on that one as well! It's the one with the green straps, Steve, if that jogs your memory - part of the famous 'Vicarage Rd deal' in the late 70s or was it early 80s?).

I must put my hands up as well for what is, therefore, an error in the copy I provided for the AngloInt. booklet. Again entirely my fault. Sorry Alan! Sorry Graham!! Another one for all collectors of errors in print.

A poor response so far to my Quiz question about another Geoff/George confusion, so here's a clue: it's on the Topic label.

Best wishes

Roger

[Stephen Chambers]

well I think you will find any fretted instrument will be in equal temperament so it will sound horrific ...

Fretted instruments have always been recognised as an intonation nightmare, I'm sure somebody could write a physics paper on the subject of how no regularly fretted instrument (with more than one string) can possibly play properly "in tune" at all! (Maybe they already have? )

 

There are many different compromises in use to try to improve their intonation, including compensated bridges (or more crudely, just setting the bridge at an angle), compensated nuts, even (the odd) compensated frets, but nevertheless they are still only compromises, and what is "right" for a given set of strings (in a given tuning) is "wrong" for another.

 

For that matter, it's why the lute and viola da gamba have always had tied-on gut frets, so that they can be adjusted (somewhat) for intonation.

 

Perfection simply isn't possible, unless you go to the lengths of General Perronet Thompson and divide each fret of the guitar into six shorter ones, one for each string, which are individually adjustable ... (But then, he even went to the lengths of altering the fretting to play in different keys!)

 

However, I see that somebody has gone to the trouble to take out a US Patent (United States Patent 5501130) for an electronic solution:

 

Apparatus for adjusting the tuning of a musical instrument to cause the instrument to sound in just intonation while the instrument is being played comprises a data base in memory for storing an array of just intonation tone identifiers. The tone identifiers in the array are arranged by key, chordal root and tone according to just intonation relationships defined by the ratios of a scale selected by the musician. A selector unit is provided for enabling a musician to select a key and/or a chordal root, as a result of which a CPU retrieves from the array a set of tone identifiers in just intonation corresponding to the selected key or chordal root and transmits them to the sounding means of the instrument.

 

(Edited to add link to Patent.)

Edited June 22, 2006 by Stephen Chambers

[Theodore Kloba]

You have seperate buttons for both G#/Ab, and for D#/Eb, which would otherwise be "wolf" notes in the tuning.

That seems like reasonable evidence that they were tuned in one of the unequal temperaments (like one of the meantones) that contain a wolf fifth between G# and Eb. Ultimately I think a wolf is unacceptable, even on a 30-button Anglo system. That's why I was looking for an alternate unequal temperament.

A related question: How unequal could a 'tina's tuning be and still play acceptably with guitar, mandolin, fiddle, flutes (recorders, penny whistles), and other instruments whose pitch isn't quite as nailed-down as the piano's?

I think Stephen answered about the strings, but I'd like to add that a piano isn't so "nailed-down" as you might think. The further you get from the middle of its range, the more inharmonic the tones become. This requires the tuning to be "stretched" so that octaves aren't even true octaves!

Roger kindly allowed me to take measurements of that particular instrument earlier this summer. I have it measured with so many cents plus or minus from equal temperament. Unfortunately, it is also in old pitch.

If you'll post the frequencies in whatever form you have them, I will enter them into Scala and post the analysis.

Searching all Discussion Forums for the word "temperament" gave me more than 50 Topics. I don't have time to check them all out, but the following Topic titles look promising

I scanned those quickly, and there's no mention of a "new" Anglo temperament.

personally i love the sound of my concertinas as they are.

I got into this whole thing as I was trying to decide how to deal with a bandonion that's tuned to A4=447Hz, is somewhat out of tune, and has a horrible wolf when playing a C minor chord (while B7 sounds really nice). Rather than just forcing equal temperament on it, I was thinking about preserving some of the sweetness of the old tuning, while increasing flexibility.

For that matter, it's why the lute and viola da gamba have always had tied-on gut frets, so that they can be adjusted (somewhat) for intonation.

I like the approach taken in Indian sitar music (sitars also have movable frets): You tune to the vocalist; everybody has their own personal scale; the frets are high to facilitate bending, meaning that each scale degree is really a range of pitches. Of course there's no way to adapt that to a concertina.

I see that somebody has gone to the trouble to take out a US Patent (United States Patent 5501130) for an electronic solution:

You can read the full text of the patent (free, no registration) at the US Patent & Trademark Office website Edited June 22, 2006 by Theodore Kloba

[JimLucas]

Searching all Discussion Forums for the word "temperament" gave me more than 50 Topics. I don't have time to check them all out, but the following Topic titles look promising

I scanned those quickly, and there's no mention of a "new" Anglo temperament.

Sorry about that, Theodore, but no.

I wasn't responding to your post that started the thread, but to ragtimer's comment about early Englishes:

You're the first person I've heard to claim that originally Englsih concertinas were indeed tuned in unequal temperament....

 

As for "new" temperaments, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anything that's both new and tolerable. But as various folks have noted, various of the "old" ones are excellent for particular purposes, and you might be able to find one to suit your needs.

 

I won't make recommendations, because this is an area where I'm definitely not an expert.

[Robin Harrison]

................nothing to add from a tecnical perspective.............BUT..... yesterday Colin Dipper was putting the final tune on a new Bb/F long-scale reeded anglo for me.

Two interesting things. One is that as I will use for for Morris only, I wanted it loud. Colin recommended wooden ends........

Second it's being tuned to an mean tone scale worked out by Chris Allert ( a regular on this forum). Chris has a deep understanding of these scales and was generous enough to let me sent it to Colin to use. However as I play with a Kimber influence and Chris was unfamiliar with Morris music, Dan Worral (also of this forum) looked over the scale and confirmed that it should work well. As Dan says above, for this style of playing the thirds should sound good.

Colin played it over the phone ( I almost fainted !!) and says it sounds very smooth, I don't know what that means yet......he said that the variation from equal temperament was from minus 2 cents to plus 46 cents ! I'll let you know.

Regards Robin

[JimLucas]

well if I was a concertina and I had been in equal temperament for fifty years,and someone started messing about with my insides,without my permission,Ithink Iwould feel pretty mean about it its enough to make anyone have a mean temperament.in fact Iwould refuse to play.

If you were a guitar, though, you shouldn't fret about it.

[JimLucas]

well if I was a concertina and I had been in equal temperament for fifty years,and someone started messing about with my insides,without my permission,Ithink Iwould feel pretty mean about it its enough to make anyone have a mean temperament.in fact Iwould refuse to play.

If you were a guitar, though, you shouldn't fret about it.

Nice one Jim, that beamed me up.and if you werethe pipes you would put them in your pipes and smoke it.

As a confirmed nonsmoker, I would have to bag that. But I won't accuse you of plumbing the depths with that one; instead, I'm grinning at your lighter humor.

[Stephen Chambers]

well if I was a concertina and I had been in equal temperament for fifty years,and someone started messing about with my insides,without my permission,Ithink Iwould feel pretty mean about it its enough to make anyone have a mean temperament.in fact Iwould refuse to play.

If you were a guitar, though, you shouldn't fret about it.

Nice one Jim, that beamed me up.and if you werethe pipes you would put them in your pipes and smoke it.

As a confirmed nonsmoker, I would have to bag that. But I won't accuse you of plumbing the depths with that one; instead, I'm grinning at your lighter humor.

Not fuming then?