Teenager On A Budget Looking For A Concertina

[Lily Graham]

I really want to learn to play the concertina but I don't have a lot of money and so I don't know what the best decision is. I know I want a diatonic one--that's really the only specific thing I know I want. I'm not going to be able to spend more than... probably $100 at first. I was thinking maybe I could buy a really cheap one on ebay (i.e. http://cgi.ebay.com/Nice-Antique-Vintage-C...QQcmdZViewItem), at least just to learn the fingering and whatnot and if I stick with it until it breaks then I can move on a to a higher quality instrument. What's the deal with it--it'll probably just have an accordian reed, I guess? How intolerable do you think it would be... or do you know any other way I could get a super-cheap concertina?

 

Thanks!

-Lily

[Woody]

I really want to learn to play the concertina but I don't have a lot of money and so I don't know what the best decision is. I know I want a diatonic one--that's really the only specific thing I know I want. I'm not going to be able to spend more than... probably $100 at first. I was thinking maybe I could buy a really cheap one on ebay (i.e. http://cgi.ebay.com/Nice-Antique-Vintage-C...QQcmdZViewItem), at least just to learn the fingering and whatnot and if I stick with it until it breaks then I can move on a to a higher quality instrument. What's the deal with it--it'll probably just have an accordian reed, I guess? How intolerable do you think it would be... or do you know any other way I could get a super-cheap concertina?

 

Thanks!

-Lily

 

 

Hi Lily & welcome,

 

I couldn't see the one you listed, but for what it's worth here's my ten-pennuth...........

 

I started on one of these which seem to pop up in a used condition on Ebay quite regularly and cheaply. I won't lie to you, they're not very good and you'll get fed-up with it's limitations quite quickly - though you might well get 6 months plus of learning out of it before it gets to be problem.

 

Another option is a very cheap 30 button Chinese Anglo such as at this ebay listing. I've got one like this at the moment and again it's not very good, though it's better than the one listed above and improves greatly if you change the hand straps (very easy to do). I'd say you'd get about a years worth of practice out of a decent one before it really started to drive you insane with it's limitations.

 

 

The problem with both the above is quality. You could have two identical ones side-by-side and one might be a lot better than the other - you don't really know until you've played it for a bit and seen what problems you encounter. If you can get to try before you buy it is always the better option (though I just took pot luck and ordered of the internet )

 

Please note thatI don't recommend the ebay listings above - they're just the first listings I found giving an example of what I'm talking about. If you're buying off the internet please make sure you read the Scams topic in this section before spending anything.

 

Another option is an old German or eastern-European one - I don't know anything about these but the impression I get is that they fall into the same sort of standard as the ones listed above.

 

 

Possibly a better option if you could afford it in the near future would be the Concertina Connection Rochelle. Concertina Connection have an

excellent reputation with their Jackie/Jack entry level English boxes and the Rochelle will hopefully live up

to their high standards - however the Rochelle is not actually available until August though it is available

for pre-order - it is also significantly above the budget you quoted coming in at about $350.

 

Alternatively The Button Box apparently hires out better quality models.

 

Whatever you go for, any box that plays the correct notes and works reasonably well is still going to be a lot of fun and provide a lot of opportunity to learn.

 

Good luck

 

- W

[JackWoehr]

The funny thing is that you can get much more used instrument if you go accordion, even button accordion, than if you go concertina. A concertina under $200 usually is not much of an instrument. But you can get a used Hohner button accordion for that, e.g., I just bought an A/D/G three-row for that.

 

You might check out Club System accordion. The layout is somewhat similar to as if an Anglo-Irish concertina were to be folded entirely onto the right-hand fingerboard.

[Woody]

The funny thing is that you can get much more used instrument if you go accordion, even button accordion, than if you go concertina. A concertina under $200 usually is not much of an instrument. But you can get a used Hohner button accordion for that, e.g., I just bought an A/D/G three-row for that.

 

You might check out Club System accordion. The layout is somewhat similar to as if an Anglo-Irish concertina were to be folded entirely onto the right-hand fingerboard.

 

With all due respect - this is Concertina.Net

 

While what you say is true, is this really the place to try to discourage keen beginners from playing the Concertina and to persuade them to take up something else instead????

 

 

(In my meagre understanding I believe the cost is greatly influenced by the amount of space you have in which to squeeze all the bits - and your accordion looks a bit bigger than my Anglo)

[m3838]

/While what you say is true, is this really the place to try to discourage keen beginners from playing the Concertina and to persuade them to take up something else instead???? /

 

I think it is.

If a person on $100 budget is looking for a diatonic concertina, chances are a one row accordion will do.

We should explain the differences between instruments and the prices.

A somewhat decent 20 button diatonic concertina is about twice more expencive than somewhat decent one row Pokerwork. It's the music, not the party line.

Having said that, I must confess (warn) that I have 7 accordions and one semi-decent 20 button concertina.

Accordions are pretty much left alone to gather dust. Not because I don't want to practice - it's the time and space. I take tiny concertina with me and wherever I see an opportunity, I take it out and practice. Mostly in my car. So if you have irregular and unpredictable lifestyle - accordion may not work for you.

Look for some used German 20 buttons. Can anyone on this forum offer some old clanker in good condition?

Rent perhabs?

[Woody]

While what you say is true, is this really the place to try to discourage keen beginners from playing the Concertina and to persuade them to take up something else instead????

 

I think it is.

 

 

So you don't want keen beginners to learn the Concertina?

 

Do you want to keep all the fun for yourself?

 

 

If a person on $100 budget is looking for a diatonic concertina, chances are a one row accordion will do.

 

Will do for what?

 

If you're just looking for something to play tunes on then you're right, but then why pay all that money when you can buy a decent tin whistle for a few pounds/dollars.

 

If you're just looking to play any kind of free-reed instrument, then you're absolutely right.

 

BUT

 

If you're looking to learn to play the Concertina it's of no use whatsoever. It's like saying "Hey you want a car - why not buy a rowing boat instead? They're both means of transportation and a cheap inflatable boat costs less than a cheap car. Sure a lot of the principals are different, it goes in different directions, and learning to row a boat won't help improve your driving much- but what the hey! "

 

To quote my grandmother - "Blimey!"

 

- W

[Woody]

I started on one of these which seem to pop up in a used condition on Ebay quite regularly and cheaply. I won't lie to you, they're not very good and you'll get fed-up with it's limitations quite quickly - though you might well get 6 months plus of learning out of it before it gets to be problem.

 

Another option is a very cheap 30 button Chinese Anglo such as at this ebay listing. I've got one like this at the moment and again it's not very good, though it's better than the one listed above and improves greatly if you change the hand straps (very easy to do). I'd say you'd get about a years worth of practice out of a decent one before it really started to drive you insane with it's limitations.

 

Hi again Lily,

 

I re-read my coments and I think they are a tad too negative. I've just tried playing both of these boxes to get a better idea of what I think of them now I've been playing for a bit over a year - and thinking about what it was like when I started playing.

 

The 20 button one is just about bearable. The big problem I find with this is that once I managed to get to a level where my playing speed began improving I found that the box provided quite a lot of resistance from the bellows making it diffcult to play quickly. I mainly play English music which I would say tends to be slower than the pace that Irish music gets played at - but still runs along at a danceable speed.

 

That said it depends on what type of music you're playing. If you were playing a slow tune then the box is still OK - and probably OK if you were playing chords to accompany singing. So after a year of learning I've probably reached the end with this box - hence it rarely gets played these days, though it's handy to keep in the car.

 

The 30 button box is definitely better. I found that with regular playing it became a lot quicker than the 20 button box. It also has the advantage of the extra buttons which gives you a bit more choice on musical keys, and hence more room to grow on this box. I still play it regularly and although I'm in the process of replacing it I could put up with it for a bit longer. The main problems I've had with it are the straps (the original ones were of no use to me once I'd got past the initial learning stages - but I mainly play standing up so they're more important in my case), and I find the buttons are a bit too close (but I'm a guy with reasonably large hands - the closeness of the buttons might be an asset for somebody with smaller hands).

 

Hope this helps

 

- W

[JimLucas]

It also has the advantage of the extra buttons which gives you a bit more choice on musical keys, and hence more room to grow on this box.

The extra buttons also give you the ability to play tunes that aren't restricted to simple diatonic "keys" and modes. Tunes with more than one accidental -- "White Christmas" is my favorite example -- simply can't be done on a 20-button. And I'm working on some Swedish tunes right now that work nicely on a 30-button, but aren't possible on a 20-button. Swedish tunes with a "tonic" of A or D often have multiple occurrences of both C and C#, but F's only natural (no F#).

[DavidFR]

The extra buttons also give you the ability to play tunes that aren't restricted to simple diatonic "keys" and modes. Tunes with more than one accidental -- "White Christmas" is my favorite example -- simply can't be done on a 20-button. And I'm working on some Swedish tunes right now that work nicely on a 30-button, but aren't possible on a 20-button. Swedish tunes with a "tonic" of A or D often have multiple occurrences of both C and C#, but F's only natural (no F#).

 

Lily,

 

While I generally agree with Jim and Woody that 30-button instruments are much more versatile, a 20-button anglo may be a better place for you to start, especially in your price range. My main instrument has been a 20-button Lachenal C/G for about 8 years now (granted I didn't play it much for 4-5 when I was in college) lots of tunes while learning the instrument. I should mention that when Paul Groff was done restoring it, my box was probably better than first came out of the Lachenal production line. But the point is that for a first instrument you should not be scared away from 20-button concertinas. You can do and learn so much with them. Later if you decide you like it you will have plenty of options to move up.

[Delbert Blackketter]

. . . .the point is that for a first instrument you should not be scared away from 20-button concertinas.

 

The 20 button is more than enough to get you playing many tunes, where you can then decide on making a larger investment in an instrument

 

Alan Day's tutor for tune play is 20 Button-friendly:

http://www.filmsonglass.co.uk/concertina-tutorial.htm

 

Also, Pauline de Snoo presents a tutorial on the music; the structure:

http://www.concertina-academy.com/

 

My feeling is if you are on a tight budget, and cannot afford an instrument costing several thousand dollars, it is far better to not be able to afford an expensive instrument than it is to not be able to afford an inexpensive instrument. (so play what you can get)

 

Regards,

 

Del

[Jerome C]

The 30 button box is definitely better. I found that with regular playing it became a lot quicker than the 20 button box. It also has the advantage of the extra buttons which gives you a bit more choice on musical keys, and hence more room to grow on this box. I still play it regularly and although I'm in the process of replacing it I could put up with it for a bit longer. The main problems I've had with it are the straps (the original ones were of no use to me once I'd got past the initial learning stages - but I mainly play standing up so they're more important in my case), and I find the buttons are a bit too close (but I'm a guy with reasonably large hands - the closeness of the buttons might be an asset for somebody with smaller hands).

 

I started with one of those in February and upgraded to a used Stagi W-15LN in March (final price on eBay for the Stagi was ~$400, bidded up by more than $20 by a couple of barracudas within the last minute).

 

--The Chinese box has a much lighter touch on the buttons; the stiffer buttons of the Stagi enable crisper repeated notes.

--The Chinese box is very leaky, making it difficult to execute quick note changes that require bellows reversals.

--The reeds on the Chinese box vary in their responsiveness. The left hand isn't too bad, but the G row on the right hand requires much more air on the draw; in fact, the A draw on the right hand G went out completely on the second day of playing. I intend to open up the box and try to free that reed once I have enough of a weekend block free.

--The tone of the Chinese box is actually somewhat sweeter than that of the Stagi. It seems nicer for backing vocals with chords.

--The closeness of the buttons to the bar on the Chinese box was a problem for me too, requiring hyperextension of the wrists that led to painful swelling. Based on a tip I read on this forum, I solved the problem by cutting a couple of bars of plastic foam from some appliance packing, about 3/4" thick, wrapping them in duct tape, and duct-taping them to the concertina handles.

 

By the way, does anyone notice a resemblance between the ends of the Chinese box and those of the Rochelle?

[Stephen Chambers]

... does anyone notice a resemblance between the ends of the Chinese box and those of the Rochelle?

Could that be because they're both built in China?

[m3838]

/does anyone notice a resemblance between the ends of the Chinese box and those of the Rochelle?

Could that be because they're both built in China? /

 

It's because they both are built by the same manufacturer. China is big and diverse. There's some smart ass entrepreneur, making musical instruments for the "West", perhaps paying big chunks to the Oh-so-principal_comrades to be able to do so. They most likely have the same standard for everything and are not going to change it so easily. Inside it might be very different, but somehow I doubt it. If it IS very different, I wouldn't mind Chinese communism

[m3838]

/So you don't want keen beginners to learn the Concertina?/

 

It's up to them. I just doon't want them to have unrealistic expectations.

I think to suggest badly made, leaky, slow Chinese 20 button for whopping $200 is not a fair game.

 

 

/Do you want to keep all the fun for yourself?/

 

I'm from the USSR and used to resist Party Discipline. I'm also trained to detect so called "Socialist Realism", where you don't lie, but don't tell all the truth either.

No, there is NO concertina for $100, forget it.

 

 

 

/If a person on $100 budget is looking for a diatonic concertina, chances are a one row accordion will do./

 

/Will do for what? /

 

For having a squeezebox and playing folk tunes on it.

 

/If you're just looking for something to play tunes on then you're right, but then why pay all that money when you can buy a decent tin whistle for a few pounds/dollars./

 

Totally agree with you.

 

/BUT/

 

There is no 'buts' for $100 in Concertinaland. That's it.

A squeezebox for $100 is a one row old ebay Pokerwork.

A concertina begins with at least $200, and a bad one. Even at $400 it's a bad one. Blimey, as your Grandfather said, even a $500 brass reeded Lachenal is a bad one.

 

My position is exampled like this:

You want a car. Decent used car can be had at $3000. But you have only $500. What's wrong with a used motor scooter? You'll still learn to navigate in the city and will get places in time on your own schedule, no?

 

Blimey, shum young pipl wan' too mush.

[Jerome C]

It's up to them. I just doon't want them to have unrealistic expectations.

I think to suggest badly made, leaky, slow Chinese 20 button for whopping $200 is not a fair game.

 

-- Well, it's a badly made, leaky, slow Chinese 30-button for $110-$115 (+ $25 shipping)

 

A squeezebox for $100 is a one row old ebay Pokerwork.

 

-- I don't recall any one-row accordion as low as $100 on the 'bay (except for the plastic toy ones for $20 with seven melody keys and two basses).

 

My position is exampled like this:

 

You want a car. Decent used car can be had at $3000. But you have only $500. What's wrong with a used motor scooter? You'll still learn to navigate in the city and will get places in time on your own schedule, no?

...yes, and if you go that route, when you actually do get a car, you'll have learned that the way to accelerate is to twist the end of the handlebars and the way to decelerate is to squeeze the levers on the handlebars, wait a minute, what handlebars? and what does the wheel do? and what are those pedals for?

 

One can get a car for $500. Its miles will be in six figures and its gas mileage in maybe one, and it'll probably make horrible noises, and one will learn about all the things that can go wrong with it and either how to fix them oneself or how much it costs to fix them. But in contrast to a motor scooter, one can bring home a load of groceries, be under a roof when it's raining, have a companion in the passenger seat.

 

From what Lily wrote, it sounds as if she understands what she'd be getting into. She's not going to get Dipper or even Stagi quality, but she'll be able to learn how to finger across three rows and have melody notes under both hands. She will have started out on the way to being a concertina player, not an accordion player.

[Jerome C]

... does anyone notice a resemblance between the ends of the Chinese box and those of the Rochelle?

Could that be because they're both built in China?

 

Now that I've gotten home, I've compared the right end of my box with the right end of the Rochelle in the photo. The buttons on the Rochelle are placed somewhat differently and closer together, and what can be seen of the action through the S-holes is different between the boxes. But the basic design of the cover plates appears to be the same on the Jackie, the Rochelle, and my box. It may be one company that supplies the blanks as of before the holes are drilled and the handle hardware fitted.

[m3838]

/ Well, it's a badly made, leaky, slow Chinese 30-button for $110-$115 (+ $25 shipping)/

 

So yoiu would actually suggest to throw away the money for just the 'look' of concertina, but nowhere near the needed instrument? Have a pity!

 

/ I don't recall any one-row accordion as low as $100 on the 'bay /

 

Come on, you just don't know how to look then. German ebay is full of instruments and the prices are generally much lower. Also, if you have hands and a little patience, you can get decent 2 row for as low as $80. My 3 Pokerworks (A/D, C/F and C/G) all were in the $100 range.

 

/...yes, and if you go that route, when you actually do get a car, you'll have learned that the way to accelerate is to twist the end.../

 

I disagree. It's very easy to actually learn to drive, or rather, to push buttons. But to learn the phrazing, rhythm, build a repertore takes a long time. One can easily transpose from 1 row button accordion to 20 button concertina, without been frustrated and quit long before a decent concertina becomes available.

 

 

/One can get a car for $500./

 

No. If you believe it, try it. The only thing you'll learn with such a car - is bus schedule.

 

 

/From what Lily wrote, it sounds as if she understands what she'd be getting into. She's not going to get Dipper or even Stagi quality, but she'll be able to learn how to finger across three rows and have melody notes under both hands. She will have started out on the way to being a concertina player, not an accordion player./

 

Perhabs you're right. The chances are though, that she'll waste that little money she has on plywood dust, and will not become player of anything. Stop this strange "encouragement". Unless you are going to walk the walk and re-emburse her in case of a disaster.

[Woody]

-- So you don't want keen beginners to learn the Concertina?

 

- It's up to them. I just doon't want them to have unrealistic expectations.

- I think to suggest badly made, leaky, slow Chinese 20 button for whopping $200 is not a fair game.

 

 

I think that from her post Lily seems to have clear and realistic expectations.

 

 

 

- I'm from the USSR and used to resist Party Discipline. I'm also trained to detect so called "Socialist Realism", where you don't lie, but don't tell all the truth either.

 

 

Do you feel we are trying to mislead Lily? I hope that we're all just trying to give her our honest personal opinions so that she can make her own judgement.

 

 

 

- They most likely have the same standard for everything and are not going to change it so easily. Inside it might be very different, but somehow I doubt it. If it IS very different, I wouldn't mind Chinese communism

 

 

Firstly with the Rochelle - the creation of this box seems to be following the process they followed to create the Jackie and Jack English Concertinas. It looks like they've taken a basic entry level box and re-engineered the mechanism, bellows and I'd guess something with the reeds to make a decent beginner's instrument. I can only go by what the English Concertina players have said about the Jackie/Jack boxes but all the reviews and all I've heard first hand seem very favourable and I defer to their judgment. With the good name that Concertina Connection have I doubt they're going to jepordise it by bringing out a dog - though of course I could always be wrong.

 

You also seem to have a very antiquated view of how Chinese business works - possibly more relevant 20 years ago. I still couldn't put up with Chinese Communism though - issues about detention without trial, ignoring international law and complicity with torture come to mind rather than their manufacturing ability - but then again my own country's record doesn't neccessarily bear close inspection.

 

 

 

- No, there is NO concertina for $100, forget it.

 

Strictly speaking you're correct. What you get with a cheap box is an accordian made to look and handle basically like a Concertina- the reed technology is all accordian based. However where the buttons are and what they do mimics a concertina.

 

 

 

--- If a person on $100 budget is looking for a diatonic concertina, chances are a one row accordion will do.

 

--Will do for what?

 

- For having a squeezebox and playing folk tunes on it.

 

 

And if Lily had asked us for a recommendation for a "cheap squeezebox to play folk tunes on" then pointing her towards a Pokerwork would be a reasonable response.

 

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions. I don't think Lily's even mentioned what type of music she wants to play.

 

 

 

-- If you're just looking for something to play tunes on then you're right, but then why pay all that money when you can buy a decent tin whistle for a few pounds/dollars.

 

- Totally agree with you.

 

Blimey!

 

 

 

- There is no 'buts' for $100 in Concertinaland. That's it.

- A squeezebox for $100 is a one row old ebay Pokerwork.

- A concertina begins with at least $200, and a bad one. Even at $400 it's a bad one. Blimey, as your Grandfather said, even a $500 brass reeded Lachenal is a bad one.

 

- My position is exampled like this:

- You want a car. Decent used car can be had at $3000. But you have only $500. What's wrong with a used motor scooter? You'll still learn to navigate in the city and will get places in time on your own schedule, no?

 

 

If you want to "learn to navigate in the city and get places in time on your own schedule" then maybe, but once again you're imposing assumptions based on your motivations upon somebody else. If you wanted "to learn to drive a car" a motor scooter would be of no use.

 

I don't know about elsewhere but in the UK there's a long tradition of buying very cheap cars to learn in, and in many poorer parts of the world cars that in the West would only be worth scrap value live long and useful lives with the help of a lot of TLC and a couple of big hammers

 

 

 

- So yoiu would actually suggest to throw away the money for just the 'look' of concertina, but nowhere near the needed instrument? Have a pity!

 

 

Two points here:-

 

1. If you can buy a cheap used Concertina on Ebay for $100, you can probably sell it again for much the same money on Ebay.

 

2. With "throw away the money for just the 'look' of concertina" - I don't think anybody has suggested this at all. What has been suggested is what Lily referred to herself - to get a cheap box and "just to learn the fingering and whatnot".

 

 

 

- Perhabs you're right. The chances are though, that she'll waste that little money she has on plywood dust, and will not become player of anything. Stop this strange "encouragement".

 

 

You're suggesting that by going down this route she'll learn nothing. How does that compare with the evidence?

 

Lots of players have started by going down exactly the same route that Lily is beginning. I myself am one. Yet despite wasting my time and not becoming a player of anything it seems that if I pick up my plastic 20 button box, my 30 button Chinese box, my 26 button Jones or if I pick up a top of the range Concertina, I can play all of them. Certainly I can play tunes better on my Jones and it's even easier on a more expensive box, but I learned HOW TO play it on the cheap boxes that you dismiss out of hand.

 

 

- W

 

 

Edited by Woody to remove line

Edited June 20, 2006 by Woody