Reed Shoes

[slatteryj]

Can someone tell me what impact replacing brass reed shoes with aluminium shoes will have on sound quality and performance. These are the screw and clamp variety and not the pinched reed type shoes.

Edited November 25, 2003 by slatteryj

[jmshoup]

I'm surprised that on one has responded to this yet!

 

Often this question gets some quite strong opinions on the board (perhaps mostly found in the old forum?)

 

I have a concertina with brass shoes, one with aluminum, and can tell little difference that can't be attributed more to layout and design rather than materials. The accordions I own are all constructed with aluminum shoes... from a 1940's Hohner, a 1950's Bell, and a 1990's castagnari and the tonal characteristics are all over the board, but none seem to suffer from the use of aluminum. Dipper uses aluminum on some reed shoes, brass on others (at least on the very, very few that I've encountered, those lucky folks!) so my suspicion is that it's not as significant as it's been made out to be.

[Richard Morse]

Strong opinions and not a lot of data? I've seen and played *many* concertinas and accordions with all brass and all aluminum reed shoes as well as a goodly number of squeezeboxes with a mixture of brass and aluminum (some due to replacement, some due to intentional original design) as well as zinc.

 

My observation is that there isn't ANY tonal or response difference - though I haven't gone to any lengths to do quantifiable testing by identical set-ups with the reed shoe material being the only variable.

 

My Wheatstone has aluminum reed shoes and I think it sounds great. Steve Dickinson has said to me that he doesn't consider there to be any tonal/response difference and will (that is, when he does make them) produce either.

 

There DOES seem to be a stigmata about aluminum being inferior - maybe because it's a johnny-come-lately material? Not "historic"? Because it was more cost-effective which people tend to associate with "cheaper" and poorer quality?

 

There are so many other things that affect a reed's tone/response as well as the overall instrument's playability that the reed shoe material is immaterial to me when dealing with existing instruments (well - except when it comes to replacement where we would always replace things in kind). When creating NEW instruments, choosing the reed shoe material has more to do with fabrication and cost concerns which may make us choose one over the other.

[Clive Thorne]

My main concern with Aluminium is that the thread in the reed clamp screw holes would strip rather easily. But then I gues you'd only plan on tightening them up once anyway.

 

In my 'mind' concertina (ie my pipedream plans that will probably nevr happen) I was planning on laser cut stainless steel shoes, and spring stainless tongues. Clearances could then be very fine without being affected by temperature.

 

Any thoughts on that anyone?

 

Clive

[Dave Prebble]

Hi,

 

I concur with those above when they suggest that the reed quality and fit is far more significant than the frame raw material.

I have been lucky enough to play some superb quality top end concertinas made with aluminium frames. I could perceive no real differences in tone or response but Oh! the saving in weight !!!! A real Godsend for Morris musicians who generally have to play standing.

 

Leaving aside the tone and response question, there could be two potentially quite serious impacts should you go down the route of swapping reed frames.

 

Should you attempt the task yourself the likely result is a nervous breakdown and if you commission the work from someone else, bankruptcy may well loom on your horizon!!

 

Regards

 

Dave

[Alan Day]

Hi Dave,

John Kirkpatrick`s concertina has Aluminium reed shoes.Very light and with John playing it I have no problem with the sound.

Al

[d.elliott]

Having worked on and played both brass & Al framed reeds. My observations are: aluminium has the edge in terms of playability, weight {as Dave says}. I have never seen any overt issue relating to Al oxide or corrosion. However brass is easier to work on, tuning etc. it is less likely to be damaged by shims or have tongue inadvertantly shifted.

 

Dave

[Dave Prebble]

John Kirkpatrick`s concertina has Aluminium reed shoes.Very light and with John playing it I have no problem with the sound.

Eh Up Al,

 

I have played that concertina myself (a Crabb) and it is as light as a feather compared to my 38k Jeffries.

 

Now, if only I could play it like John ...............

 

Cheers

Dave

[Chris Ghent]

Richard Evans tells me aluminium (note the second 'i') has no tone penalty that he can hear but it does have one constructional disadvantage; in the same dimensions as brass, it does not have the same resistance to distortion. Consequently the aluminium shoes used in more recent concertinas often have an inward curve in the side rail of the shoe. This avoids the side of the shoe being forced in by contact with the pan and fouling the reed when the shoe is tight in the slot. The shoe is therefore pinned into the slot only at the tip and the heel.

 

A wider range of grades of aluminium is available these days and it might be possible to use one that did not suffer this problem, though there would be a penalty in how easy it was to work. You could also use thicker aluminium, eroding your weight advantage, and needing more precision in the layout of valve v frame slot, as a valve would not sit well on a thicker frame, whereas in tight spots with similar frame thickness and slot depth they can overlap.

 

Aluminium was not available when concertinas were at their most popular, but if it had been I would think it would have been a selling point. We tend to think it a sign of cheaper and therefore less worthy construction, but it is also a technological breakthrough in any instrument that is hand held. Its bad reputation may be due to the cumulative effect of a number of cost cutting measures that were introduced at around the same time and which are typical of an autumn industry.

 

Some part of the negative image of Al might be the positive image of brass, associated with solidity of construction and warm antique looks.

 

Clive proposes stainless... heavy, very hard to work.

 

regs

 

Chris

[d.elliott]

I never noticed the concavity of the frame sides, but then I did not know to look, I know that I will have another instrument to attack soon, and will check this out.

 

Thanks for the tip

 

Dave

[Clive Thorne]

Clive proposes stainless... heavy, very hard to work.

The density of Stainless isn't much different from Brass, and as it is generally stronger I was I was probably planning to reduce the size of the shoes a bit, which would make tham the same sort of weight as brass. Still not as light aluminium though.

 

Regarding it being hard to work the idea was that I wouldn't work them, they'd be laser cut to the correct size, complete with the dovetail angles. This would still leave the clamp screw holes to be drilled and tapped however, which although harder than brass can still be done.

 

Anyway, as I said, I'm sure its all a pipedream (sadly), and as such some practicalities can be ignored! If if ever looks like becoming a real posibility then I'll have to reassess my ideas.

 

 

Clive.

[Paul Groff]

Clive,

 

Regarding stainless tongues (only), this is very unscientific, but... I once needed to make a replacement reedtongue for an early english concertina with nickel-silver reeds. Some tongues had previously been replaced with steel, and these notes were far too bright and loud. The brass stock I had on hand (which I hammered to harden it, as recommended in an old encyclopedia article) wasn't quite right either (although it has worked well to match other brass-tongued reeds). Given the materials I had lying around my friend's machine shop, the best results came from a piece of stainless steel scrap. I'm not sure of the alloy or hardness; it may well not have been spring-tempered. But it gave a strong sound with slightly slow response and mellow tone, perfectly matching the excellent (Scates) nickel-silver tongues. Of course there are many variables available to a reedmaker, even when replacing a tongue in a given frame - I might have been able to use this same material to make a brighter tone with faster response (more like spring [carbon] steel) if I was trying to do so, by changing the thickness profile of the reed for the same pitch. But my impression was that this particular alloy at its given temper would not be a good material for really loud, bright, fast reeds.

 

Have you experimented with stainless steel tongues and achieved really bright reeds?

 

I often wonder if a particular Praed St. Jeffries anglo that spent time in India had tongues of some early form of stainless, as there never was (and never has been) any sign of rust or discoloration on the tongues, whereas the cheese-head bolts that clamp the tongues (to the normal brass frames) have noticeable surface rust. This instrument came to me (and remains) in what I judge to be its original pitch and temperament (and highly in tune), and from its overall condition I doubt very much if it has ever had the tongues replaced. Lovely and unusual tone from this one! Ab/Eb. I have heard that some concertinas were made specifically for export (or transport, e. g. by military officers) to tropical regions; perhaps this was one.

 

Paul

Edited November 29, 2003 by Paul Groff

[Clive Thorne]

Paul,

 

I've never actually made any reeds, all I've ever done is tickle the tuning on a few of my own and some friends concertinas, having started on melodeons (Don't worry; I've only put them back in tune, not changed the fundamental pitch or temperament). The one time I did have a reed break it got sent off to Colin Dipper to get replaced.

 

My thoughts on the stainless steel were thus purely theoretical based on the fact that they wouldn't rust, and rusting seems to be a significant cause of going out of tune (well for older instruments at least).

 

Also, the fact that both the tongue and frame were very similar materials would mean that very fine clearances could be used without any problems in low temperatures. Colin dipper once said that its not unheard of for areed to work fine inside, but for it to stick on a cold frosty morning due to the differential contraction between the brass and the steel.

 

Also the fact that stainles steel can be precisely cut by laser very easily, whereas brass and aluminium can be problematic.

 

I do know that you can get a variety of spring temperd stainless steels, but I wouldn't know how to go about selecting one other than by trial and error.

 

I also have quite a few other progressive ideas for my pipedream concertina, in the use of modern materials and techniques, but retaining the essential design features that make it an 'english construction' and retain the associated sound.

 

Perhaps I should give up the day job and build one!, Who knows... someday (whistful sigh)

 

Clive

[Paul Groff]

Clive,

 

I am very interested in this sort of "evolutionary" (rather than "revolutionary!") progress in concertina engineering. I used to have a gig playing Christmas music outside for hours at a time in San Francisco, normally not too cold in December. But one year there was an arctic air mass or something and we had cold wind and even snow. Coat, hat, and gloves got me through until the brass frames clamped shut on a few reeds. They were fine when they warmed up.

 

I just re-examined the reeds in that Jeffries with the Madras label on the (original Jeffries ) leather case, and they definitely are odd, as I remembered. Has anyone seen similar Jeffries reeds from the Praed St. period, or know of different steel being used in instruments that were to be brought to India?

 

Paul

[d.elliott]

Paul/ Clive,

 

on the subject of pipe dreams, I have often wondered about the use of titanium for reed shoes, expensive but..........

 

Oh, and nickel-silver strip is still available, but the availablility of off-cuts ???

 

Dave

[Dave Prebble]

Hi Dave,

 

Plenty of nickel silver in various ornaments, trays come to mind; or lurking in your cutlery drawer (EPNS Electro Plated Nickel Silver) if you can acid strip the plate then roll it and cut it.

 

Do a full canteen of cutlery and hog the market !!

 

Regards

 

Dave

[Paul Groff]

Dave, and Dave,

 

I have since gotten some nickel-silver wire (round) that is easy to hammer flat for excellent reedtongues of that type. I have also tried different kinds of fretwire (made in different alloys for guitar frets etc.). In the U. S., machine shop supply outfits will sell nickel-silver stock also. I confess at the time I made the stainless tongue I was more curious to see what I could accomplish with the materials on hand.

 

Re: the material for the shoes, I have always felt that different metals (and different mass/depth/width) do make a difference in the sound of a concertina. I really think I prefer brass. However I recognize that this may be an assumption - I might not be able to distinguish between two reeds with shoes of different metals made by the same maker at the same pitch, in the same slot of the same instrument. I would be willing to volunteer for a test if someone sets one up. I notice (I believe) that accordion reeds riveted to zinc plates have a markedly different tone than those riveted to alumin(i)um plates. I prefer the former (when the tongues are very well made -- they often are not) but they are heavy. And again, it is hard to know that the steel in the tongues was comparable. Oxidation and fouling can be a problem with the zinc (as it was in the early aluminum-framed concertina reeds; I have not seen this in more recent aluminum-framed reeds). Some very fine early button accordions had reedtongues riveted to brass plates, and these sound brilliant and warm; again, very heavy when the reeds are massed in those numbers. And I think brass plates are still available today for the piccolo reeds in very high quality sets of accordion reeds. Surely much research has been done here and brass would hardly be used in this application if aluminum were equivalent.

 

I am not a concertina builder and will probably never make a reedframe! But I notice that today's craftsman makers take great pains with the materials and dimensions of these, and some of the concertina reeds being made today I believe to be the best performing and sounding I have ever seen, after comparison with "the best of the best" old instruments in very original condition. Now to age the woodwork for a century...

 

Paul

[Robert Gaskins]

Using the online Wheatstone Concertina Ledgers from the

Horniman Museum, it's possible to get some idea of when

aluminium reedshoes might have first been used. The

production ledgers for the twentieth century do not record

the material for the reedshoes, but they do record the

material for the ends. Suitable aluminium alloys for both

purposes appeared at the same time, so what we can learn

about concertina makers' use of aluminium ends can

provide pretty good hints about reedshoes as well.

 

First, Wes Williams sent me some pre-concertina background:

 

> Aluminium was discovered in 1808, but commercial

> production only started in 1888, and it was such a new

> and novel item that the Eros statue (Picadilly Circus,

> London) was cast from it in 1893. As a guide to usage,

> annual output was (year/tonnes):

> 1885/15, 1900/8000, 1913/65000, 1920/128000, 1938/537000

 

As far as I can discover, although aluminium had been known

for a long time, it was too soft to be used for anything like reedshoes

or ends. This changed when a German metalurgist named

Alfred Wilm discovered how to make a "hard aluminium" in 1910,

called "Duralumin" because it was originally made only at

Duren in Germany. Duralumin was a special alloy of 96% aluminium,

4% copper, and 1% magnesium--so it retains the light weight of

aluminium but the small amounts of "impurities" give vastly

greater strength and better working properties. (Previous

alloys had produced worse metals.)

 

There's a translation of a 1920 German report on the use

of Duralumin in aircraft at the NASA website,

 

1920 German Report on Duralumin in Aircraft at NASA

 

Duralumin became something of a fad in the 1920s and

1930s, and was used for airships, racing cars, and just

about anything wanting to be modern, even cocktail

shakers--sort of like titanium in the 1990s. Duralumin is

still widely used.

 

In the Wheatstone Ledgers, if you will look at

 

volume SD01 at page 002.2

 

(a scrap of paper pasted to the inside front cover), you will see the

word "Duralumin" clearly written! (Sometimes I think I'm in a

Thomas Pynchon novel.) Volume SD01 covers 1910-1923. The

other side of the scrap of paper is some sort of announcement from

the YMCA, dated "6th May 1918".

 

More amazing, Wheatstone was making Duralumin-ended

instruments as early as 1920! It's hard to say whether

they would have begun with Duralumin ends or Duralumin reed

shoes; the reed shoes probably represent the greater mass,

but Steve Dickinson tells me that when he made Duralumin

reed shoes he found that the tools got damaged a lot because

of the hardness (though he is still willing to make them).

 

Here are some Duralumin instruments gleaned from a quick

flip through the Wheatstone Ledgers (just click on each link to

see the production ledger page for the instrument):

 

#28438 June 10 1920 SD01:138

 

#28642 Nov 29, 1920 SD01:146

 

#30499 Feb 20 1925 SD02:030

 

#31681 Nov 11 1927 SD02:078

 

#32190 Sept 9 1929 SD02:098

 

#32325 May 14 1930 SD02:104

 

#32601 Sep 2 1930 SD02:115 (an "Octophone"!)

 

#32811 Feb17 1932 SD02:123

 

#32822 Nov 7 1932 SD02:123

 

#34000 18-2-36 SD02:171

 

I knew about #34000 because it was a very special

instrument (with "new fingering"). So I started with it,

and flipped back through the ledgers from there. No

guarantee that I've found them all. Most of the

Duralumin-ended instruments are large Duets. (I never

thought that I could just "flip through" the ledgers in 20

minutes; we live in amazing times.)

 

The Wheatstone works may have been ahead in using such

materials, but it would be necessary to argue that if

Wheatstone could make a Duralumin-ended instrument as early

as 1920, anyone else could have made one as well.

 

But surely this was a very exotic material in 1920. It wouldn't

be very likely that anyone used Duralumin in making a concertina,

either for reedshoes or ends, much before 1920, and a fortiori not

before 1910.

 

Bob

Edited November 30, 2003 by Robert Gaskins