Raised Ends As A Mark Of Quality

[Dirge]

The best 'boxes usually have raised ends, but why? It's reeds more than mechanisms that vary in quality between grades of instrument made by any particular maker isn't it? Am I right in my suspicion that it makes a theoretical but negligible difference that was used as a marketing ploy by messrs Wheatstone and friends?

[JimLucas]

The best 'boxes usually have raised ends, but why?

Henk's report on his visit to Wim Wakker to see the new W-A1 anglo included some comments by Wim about what affects the sound of the instrument. Here is a relevant quote:

"According to Wim this sound spectrum is influenced by the shape of the space between the action board and frontplate (inner reflections) as well the type of fretwork and the shape of the frontplate (raised / non-raised)."

 

And my own experience is that concertinas with raised ends are more comfortable to play, though I'm having trouble pinpointing why.

 

It's reeds more than mechanisms that vary in quality between grades of instrument made by any particular maker isn't it?

No. If you read the old Wheatstone price lists, there were regular differences in materials and even engineering details such as button shape between lower-end and deluxe models.

 

Am I right in my suspicion that it makes a theoretical but negligible difference that was used as a marketing ploy by messrs Wheatstone and friends?

The best marketing "ploy" is one based on real quality.

[Chris Timson]

Am I right in my suspicion that it makes a theoretical but negligible difference that was used as a marketing ploy by messrs Wheatstone and friends?

I cannot say from my own experience, but my guru, Colin Dipper, has said to me that raised ends make no difference at all, apart from being a pain to make. Certainly my Dipper baritone and Jeffries G/D I count as among the finest of their types that I have ever played. Both have flat ends.

 

Chris

[bill_mchale]

The best 'boxes usually have raised ends, but why? It's reeds more than mechanisms that vary in quality between grades of instrument made by any particular maker isn't it? Am I right in my suspicion that it makes a theoretical but negligible difference that was used as a marketing ploy by messrs Wheatstone and friends?

 

Well my Edgley does not have raised ends, in fact the end plates are absolutely flat. Yet I would say that the Edgley certainly gives nothing up to the other midrange boxes in terms of quality and in most respects is very competitive with the best instruments (except for that certain something in the tone that only more traditional style concertina reeds seem to produce).

 

I think overall its like the fancy grill work that must of our concertinas have. Its not strictly necessary to produce a good sound, but it certainly looks nice and adds to the experience of playing.

 

--

Bill

[JimLucas]

well i have both flat ended and raised ended wheatstones,they are all good,i think the important thing is the reeds,...

 

p s,i think that the material used for the sound board makes a difference too,i remember stephen chambers ,saying many years ago that the best sound boards were made of sycamore or maple rather than any other wood .

Dick, which part are you calling the "sound board"? Is that the reed pan, the lever board, or the board with the fretwork?

 

I've been told that sycamore was preferred for reed pans because it's more stable to temperature and humidity changes, but I suppose that would also be true for using it in other parts, and I would expect the density of the wood to also affect the sound.

 

But I was also talking about the comfort of holding and playing the instrument, not just the sound. I have found raised-end concertinas to be generally more comfortable than flat-ended ones. For me. Your mileage may differ.

[Dirge]

I saw a raised end referred to as a 'power bulge' recently; it might be that that made me think about it in the first place, but it looks as if you'd all agree that there's a lot of snob value involved, even those of you who think it makes a bit of difference don't seem to think it's much! It says 'quality' but doesn't add much in itself. Marketing ploy then!

 

Brian Hayden was encouraging me to raise the handles on my raised end beast for better playing comfort and I'm thinking about that as it seems reasonable; so I should probably get my raised ends beaten flat for better playing. (I may resist that one.)

[m3838]

Could it be that bulged ends hold better agaist pressure? Or the hope was that they would? I think it would be true for metal ends, but not sure about wooden, however this could be a designer's try?

[Robert Booth]

...reeds more than mechanisms...

 

Those mechanisms can be the making or breaking of the concertina, just as easily as the reeds. Consider the overall effect of a great set of reeds dogged about by sticky buttons or weak pivots on the levers or any number of other factors that go into making a really top quality instrument.

 

God and The devil are wrestling over the details.

[m3838]

"God and The devil are wrestling over the details. "

 

There's no Devil, don't worry.

[Dirge]

Could it be that bulged ends hold better agaist pressure? Or the hope was that they would? I think it would be true for metal ends, but not sure about wooden, however this could be a designer's try?

But there's no pressure on the end plate; the buttons move smoothly through it, we hope, and the handles stand on pillars. It might brace a metal end and stop it 'tin-canning' (actually, now I think about it that might make it more acoustically dead which might help the tone) but it exposes end grain in wood. (and I'm not being sidetracked onto actions versus reeds Robert; start your own topic!)

[JimLucas]

...my guru, Colin Dipper, has said to me that raised ends make no difference at all, apart from being a pain to make.

Since the "quote" from Wim Wakker says otherwise, and I respect the knowledge and competence of both makers, I wonder if the truth of Colin's statement is not that raised ends make no difference at all, but that they make no difference (at least to the sound) that cannot be achieved by other means.

 

I saw a raised end referred to as a 'power bulge' recently;...

Wow! Sounds as if I should soon be expecting email spam selling "replica Lachenal New Models", to go along with that other status symbol, the replica "Rolex" watch.

 

...it looks as if you'd all agree that there's a lot of snob value involved, even those of you who think it makes a bit of difference don't seem to think it's much!

I didn't say that, nor would I necessarily agree to it. I don't believe anyone here has yet presented enough evidence to properly support a conclusion either way. And one thing that makes that difficult is the fact that I'm not aware of any matching-pair instruments where one has raised ends and the other flat. There always seem to be various other significant differences.

 

Could it be that bulged ends hold better agaist pressure? ... I think it would be true for metal ends, but not sure about wooden,...

Same for wooden. Fact of engineering: for the same thickness, convex curves are more resistant to deformation under pressure than flat or concave surfaces.

 

Could it be that bulged ends hold better agaist pressure?

But there's no pressure on the end plate; the buttons move smoothly through it, we hope, and the handles stand on pillars.

You seem to be ignoring the possibility of accidental pressure. Protection against accidental damage is a useful property.

 

...it exposes end grain in wood.

If carved. Not if shaped by steam and pressure. Which technique is used?

 

...I'm not being sidetracked onto actions versus reeds Robert; start your own topic!

Too late. You were the first to mention "mechanisms", when you said:

It's reeds more than mechanisms that vary...

[JimLucas]

Hmm. I just had a thought: What if the area around the buttons isn''t really raised, but that instead the edges are depressed?

 

So I just measured a few of each, both Wheatstone and Lachenal, of differing ages. To my surprise, the heights of the edges (above the end of the bellows) were consistent among the standard-range instruments of both types, but on those with "raised" ends the height was about 1/8" less.

 

Hmm!

[Cream-T]

Jim, I just came up with something similar - before reading your comment, even. My thinking was that you can fit the mechanics in the end while having a slimmer edge, therefore saving weight. Also, the difference in sound may be that the body of the concertina is lighter and therefore more responsive/resonant.

 

Since making raised ends is surely more difficult (read: costly), you get a more valuable instrument.

 

How about that for a self-made theory from a naive novice?

[Gerry]

If carved. Not if shaped by steam and pressure. Which technique is used?

Steve Dickinson uses a press. The ends sit in there for a few days and hold their shape when they come out. Its the original Wheatstone press too. I don't know for sure if additional tehniques are used, such as steam/heat/water, but I seem to recall its just pressure.

[Richard Morse]

...it exposes end grain in wood.

If carved. Not if shaped by steam and pressure. Which technique is used?

Wheatstones were made by dry-pressing/gluing 5 to 7 layers of veneer (usually maple except for the topmost would be some fancier wood). Steve Dickinson still makes the ends this way. He showed me - I've seen the presses and forms.

 

OTOH, Hamish Bayne uses a CNC milling machine to dress down an solid chunk of wood to get this shape (or at least used to when I visited him about 10 years ago).

 

We've got a cast iron screw press for SD's technique (actually a substantial bookpress) though a local woodworker has suggested using his vacuum table (we're exploring options as our Hayden will have raised ends) which works incredibly well! One of the great things about the vacuum press is that we need only make a single form rather than a double (top and bottom) form.

 

As to why having raised ends at all, I've noticed that the raised area allows us to more easily fit our action in. Significantly so such that we're able to reduce the end frame depth a bit which will make our boxes look a bit slimmer (and be a smidgeon lighter?). Another reason for the raisedness may be purely for esthetics (of which *I* find very appealing). I can't say one way or the other for any sound enhancing qualities but I've rarely come across a raised ended box I *don't* like the sound of.

[Paul Groff]

Hi all,

 

Rich is right of course about multi-ply veneer on Wheatstones and Lachenals, and the techniques, and Jim's latest post is consistent with the raised-end Wheatstones I have seen -- they are thinner than flat-topped ones at the banding (casework side edges). This could possibly lead to a weight savings, all else being equal, but of course there may be some extra weight in the raised vs. flat tops themselves.

 

An aside: in the US, selllers of flat-ended concertinas with a molded edge (e.g. a typical 30 key rosewood Lachenal anglo) have often incorrectly listed these as having "raised ends." I once tried repeatedly but unsuccessfully to get Elderly Instruments (who would never be caught listing a D 28 Martin as a D 35) to correct this mistake. I think the error comes from a false analogy with the way the term is used in cabinetmaking ("raised panel" doors etc.).

 

My main point (below) will not apply to most english-system players or to angloists/duettists who control the ends differently than I do. But FWIW,

 

I personally prefer to keep both wrists relatively straight and stably braced while playing. That is, the long bones in my hand are more or less in line with the long bones of my forearm. I avoid flexing my wrists (or even keeping them in a stable sharp-angled, backbent position as many players do). Long experience with piano, guitar, and other instruments has taught me that the flat-wrist posture is much easier on the tendons -- less friction among the internal "working parts" when your forearm muscles make your fingers move. Lack of flexing and twisting at the wrist joint (though requiring long practice to achieve with control and comfort) also creates a very stable platform for accurate bellows control and fingering. (Again I stress that many players succeed in sounding great despite using a different posture than mine.)

 

There are several consequences of the approach I prefer. First, it leads me to prefer a low handrail (wooden bar that supports the palm) exactly as dimensioned and positioned on many original early Jeffries and John Crabb anglos. Second, this approach implies a relatively closely-adjusted (but not constricting) handstrap with a relatively narrow region between the thumb and index finger. Third, for my fairly large hands and long fingers I prefer a button spacing that gets these buttons well away (but not TOO far away) from the handrails, so that my fingertips come vertically down on the middle row buttons, and have to angle only slightly for the inside and outside row buttons. Again, many original 19th century Jeffries and Crabb 31 key instruments are set up just right for my hand with this technique. This may mean the players who commissioned them had similar hand dimensions and technique...or that they had different hands with a different technique to compensate! (Anyway it certainly explains why I like the ergonomics of many stock, original early Jeffries anglos). Quite a few Wheatstone and Lachenal anglos have the inside row, index finger buttons a little close to the rails for my preference, but still my posture works fine for them. The difference I detect may reflect the lengths of my particular index fingers rather than the general wrist posture.

 

Finally, all this means that the "heel" of my hand (fleshy pad of lower palm side just beyond the wrist) can easily contact and brace against part of the fretted ends (tops) of the concertina, creating a counterforce against the straps. With practice, you can create the effect of a very stable and well controlled pair of keyboards, rather than the jumping, wriggling, unpredictable creature that many beginning angloists appear to be wrassling. And -- here is the relevance to the thread:

 

* raised ends are often a disadvantage in this context. *

 

Raised ends usually require a higher handrail (at least on the near side) than flat ends, to put the fingertips on the buttons properly. But this means that the fretwork is farther away from the heel of the hand, so putting a subtle, precise, controlled pressure against the fretwork there is more work. And the hand is more likely to bend into that sharp double angle (rather than a flat wrist and gentle arc of fingers) that has given many anglo players repetitive-motion problems over the years.

 

I have often seen angloists and concertina repairmen try to overcome problems in accommodating large hands to short button spacing, etc., via high handrails. I know a lot of you may be used to playing on these high rails. Fair enough if they work for you. However, given the number of hours I have logged trying to get the anglo to make music, I am sure my posture has helped me avoid tendonitis and related problems.

 

So I avoid raised-end anglos -- going Colin Dipper one further, if I had to pay extra for the flat ones, I would! Still, as a musician I have learned how to make raised ends work for me when I need to play an instrument that has them.

 

Paul (edited for spelling)

Edited April 26, 2006 by Paul Groff

[Chris Timson]

So I just measured a few of each, both Wheatstone and Lachenal, of differing ages. To my surprise, the heights of the edges (above the end of the bellows) were consistent among the standard-range instruments of both types, but on those with "raised" ends the height was about 1/8" less.

Hooo! It takes a devious mind to spot a devious practice. Makes sense, though. Nice one, Jim.

 

Chris

[Ken_Coles]

I personally prefer to keep both wrists relatively straight and stably braced while playing. That is, the long bones in my hand are more or less in line with the long bones of my forearm. I avoid flexing my wrists (or even keeping them in a stable sharp-angled, backbent position as many players do). Long experience with piano, guitar, and other instruments has taught me that the flat-wrist posture is much easier on the tendons -- less friction among the internal "working parts" when your forearm muscles make your fingers move. Lack of flexing and twisting at the wrist joint (though requiring long practice to achieve with control and comfort) also creates a very stable flatform for accurate bellows control and fingering. (Again I stress that many players succeed in sounding great despite using a different posture than mine.)

 

I strive for the same geometry. Not from long experience, as mine is much shorter than Paul Groff's, but from the pain of carpal tunnel inflammation. I lost most of 1999 (as far as concertina was concerned) to this mistake.

 

There are several consequences of the approach I prefer. First, it leads me to prefer a low handrail (wooden bar that supports the palm) exactly as dimensioned and positioned on many original early Jeffries and John Crabb anglos. Second, this approach implies a relatively closely-adjusted (but not constricting) handstrap with a relatively narrow region between the thumb and index finger. Third, for my fairly large hands and long fingers I prefer a button spacing that gets these buttons well away (but not TOO far away) from the handrails, so that my fingertips come vertically down on the middle row buttons, and have to angle only slightly for the inside and outside row buttons.

 

Finally, all this means that the "heel" of my hand (fleshy pad of lower palm side just beyond the wrist) can easily contact and brace against part of the fretted ends (tops) of the concertina, creating a counterforce against the straps. With practice, you can create the effect of a very stable and well controlled pair of keyboards, rather than the jumping, wriggling, unpredictable creature that many beginning angloists appear to be wrassling.

 

(....)

 

I have often seen angloists and concertina repairmen try to overcome problems in accomodating large hands to short button spacing, etc., via high handrails. I know a lot of you may be used to playing on these high rails. Fair enough if they work for you. However, given the number of hours I have logged trying to get the anglo to make music, I am sure my posture has helped me avoid tendonitis and related problems.

 

So I avoid raised-end anglos -- going Colin Dipper one further, if I had to pay extra for the flat ones, I would! Still, as a musician I have learned how to make raised ends work for me when I need to play an instrument that has them.

 

Paul

 

Interesting. I stumbled onto high handrails as one cure for me. For me, they are precisely there to promote straight forearms and hands, without backflexing the hands. With low handrails, I would have to flex the far edges of the ends of the concertina in towards each other even more than I do - the bellows limit how much I can do this. (see the pictures towards the end of the foam handles article for an idea of what I mean.) I do not have large hands or long fingers for an adult male. So for me too, raised ends may raise ergonomic issues (I've never tried them).

 

Horse for courses (or for players).

 

Ken