Tuning

[m3838]

I replaced some reeds in the G row with accidentals, that were pretuned for me, using same type of 20 button Lachenal. So the tuning was right on, I just had to shove the reed in it's slot.

Now, there are a few reeds that are off, but it isn't bothering me. It's an experiment, and it's working. 3 reeds went significantly flat.

Now, how do you chrome plate reeds? Aren't they supposed to be tuned by filing? Andy why would you want to drop reeds' pitch by applying a coat of metal?

Russian 2 rows are called "Hromka". Some suggest it's because their reeds were chrome plated (haven't seen it myself), others think it's because they play the same note on push/pull - chromaticly (there is this convention too).

[Paul Read]

I replaced some reeds in the G row with accidentals, that were pretuned for me, using same type of 20 button Lachenal. So the tuning was right on, I just had to shove the reed in it's slot.

Now, there are a few reeds that are off, but it isn't bothering me. It's an experiment, and it's working. 3 reeds went significantly flat.

Now, how do you chrome plate reeds? Aren't they supposed to be tuned by filing? Andy why would you want to drop reeds' pitch by applying a coat of metal?

Russian 2 rows are called "Hromka". Some suggest it's because their reeds were chrome plated (haven't seen it myself), others think it's because they play the same note on push/pull - chromaticly (there is this convention too).

 

I was joking about the plating - sorry The problem with pre-tuning reeds is that this will only make them 'ballpark' tuned. The pitch of reeds in place in the concertina is different to the pitch of the reed on the tuning bellows. Pre-tuned reeds have to be fine tuned for the particular location. Even changing the valves can change the in-place pitch of the reeds by a few cents. I think what you have is an approximately tuned concertina.

Edited April 4, 2006 by Paul Read

[d.elliott]

A few disparaging remarks, since my last posting, a bit sad.

 

M

I understood that you were after tuning a full instrument, and thats how I, and I guess a few others, framed our responses. I tend to agree that you might get away with tuning by ear, but only if you have a standard to tune to. There are various tuning pitch generator bits of software (freeware last time I looked) that will give you a variable (note value to note value) reference standard. But test a reed's pitch with the reed assembled into the instrument, not in free air, sounded by mouth.

 

I don't agree with Pauls comments on strobe tuning, a good quality chromatic (full scale & all sharps & flats) tuner will do most people and certainly what you are looking for.

 

I have seen a study that said that most people cannot distinguish intervals two cents, and four cents in chords/ free play when the tune is constantly moving, hence my comment about acceptable tolerance, perhaps I should have used the word 'accuracy'.

 

Paul, if you use strobe tuning, do you try to seggregate harmonics, if so how do you adjust them out?

 

I use a good quality tuner, but unfortunately over four times the cost of the 'reasonable' tuner I started off with. A good quality anaologue display being well worth the cost. In its ease and speed of use.

 

Dave

[m3838]

. I think what you have is an approximately tuned concertina.

 

Yes, it is. A pretty well approximately tuned and it works so far. It's price doesn't justify sending it to final tuning though.

[Paul Read]

A few disparaging remarks, since my last posting, a bit sad.

 

 

Paul, if you use strobe tuning, do you try to seggregate harmonics, if so how do you adjust them out?

 

I use a good quality tuner, but unfortunately over four times the cost of the 'reasonable' tuner I started off with. A good quality anaologue display being well worth the cost. In its ease and speed of use.

 

Dave

 

I hope my comments weren't taken as disparaging.

 

Dave, I actually use a virtual strobe tuner. I haven't experienced major problems with harmonics. I find this tuner works very well, with an advertised accuracy of plus or minus 0.1 cents. Most other types are reported as having an acuracy of plus or minus 2 cents. As you know, with concertinas the amount of pressure on the bellows can vary the pitch somewhat so it is essentially impossible to have spot-on tuning (tuning being affected by how hard the player pushes/pulls the bellows). I always aim for an in-concertina reading of within two cents. The only downside of the strobe type is that it isn't fast to get it 'in the ballpark'. I use a sony chromatic tuner to find the approximate pitch to set the strobe.

 

This chromatic tuner I have is about 3 cents sharp of accurate.

[m3838]

So you take a concertina, play a reed and measure it's pitch.

Then you take it out and put on your tuning device and measure it again.

And while tuning other reeds, you keep in mind the difference. Is that correct?

Thanks.

[Paul Read]

So you take a concertina, play a reed and measure it's pitch.

Then you take it out and put on your tuning device and measure it again.

And while tuning other reeds, you keep in mind the difference. Is that correct?

Thanks.

 

Make a tuning template to list all the notes.

 

Play each one against the tuner and record how sharp or flat it is

 

Take the reed pan out and one by one test the reeds and retune them.

 

As an example, if a note reads 10 cents sharp in the instrument and 15 cents sharp out of the instrument you file the reed to flatten it to read 5 cents (out of the instrument).

 

Do this with all the reeds you're interested in, put the instrument back together and repeat the exercise until all reeds are in tune when played in the instrument. (usually takes 2 - 4 goes per reed depending how far out you are to start)

[m3838]

Thanks.

You see, Icame to fully appreciate the beauty of English concertina construction. I can sort of tolerate waxing the freaking riveted reeds in a diatonic accordion, but tuning full size accordion with 5 reeds per note, plus the basses, plus you have to know how to disassemble the freaking thing, plus valves and putting all back together without messing up the register sliders and hooks. And I'm not even talking about repairing the bass mechanism.

[d.elliott]

Paul,

 

I was asking, are you using the tuner as an osciloscope, if so were you able to separate out hermonics, and have you learnt how to modify them?

 

My tuner is better than +/- 1 cent

 

Dave

[Paul Read]

Paul,

 

I was asking, are you using the tuner as an osciloscope, if so were you able to separate out hermonics, and have you learnt how to modify them?

 

My tuner is better than +/- 1 cent

 

Dave

 

No, solely as a tuner.

[Paul Read]

Paul,

 

I was asking, are you using the tuner as an osciloscope, if so were you able to separate out hermonics, and have you learnt how to modify them?

 

My tuner is better than +/- 1 cent

 

Dave

 

No, solely as a tuner.

 

Dave, I've belatedly clued in that you were detecting disparaging remarks from me re tuners other than strobes. What I was trying to get over was that the general chromatic guitar tuners are not very accurate. Strobe type tuners have much better accuracy. What I neglected to add is that there may be other tuners with sufficient accuracy although I didn't find one when I did the research a few years back. What make is yours? It would be useful to have a second tuner if mine goes on the fritz (which it has once). I believe there has been considerable discussion on this topic in the past

[Larry Stout]

I'm not sure how convenient it would be to use, but there is a feature of Audacity which might make it useable as a tuner. If you take a sample of the sound of the reed and ask for a spectrum with enhanced autocorrelation, you'll get a graph showing where the peeks in the spectrum happen and Audacity will tell you the frequency of the peeks and the notes they correspond to. I used this to check the tuning on both of my concertinas-- a bit tedious, but it gave me an idea how well in tune they were and which notes were off. If one knew how to selectively tune harmonics you could use this to see what you might want to do.

 

You can also use the same feature to figure out which notes are sounding in a chord.

Edited April 5, 2006 by Larry Stout

[d.elliott]

Paul,

 

its a Seiko, but now an obsolete model.

 

As to harmonics, I think that I must get at least 1 reed in say 200 that reads in tune, but souns off, Harmonic effects, I havd learned some causes and things to avoid/ do; but would need an oscilloscope to be able to truely get to grips with the issue, hence my questions on this thread.

 

Dave

[m3838]

I think I fixed it.

D, g, b and g' were a bit flat.

Now I need to patch the bellows.

There are some small holes in the corners, I feel the air escaping.

But here I know where to look.

Thanks for all the advices.

I used my accordion for relative pitch comparison.

If it goes flat again, I'll replace those reeds.

[JimLucas]

If it goes flat again, I'll replace those reeds.

If one of those reeds goes flat again, you'll have to replace it sooner or later. That would be a sure sign that it's cracked and on its way to breaking in two.

[mtk]

Meters are quite cheap these days, but you need one which is fully chromatic, and I prefer an analogue display

 

I have been using a computer software program called "G-tune". The program is no longer sold, but has been replaced with another called StroboSoft.

 

http://www.jhc-software.com/gtune.htm

 

G-Tune seems to work very well, although I have not had a second opinion on my tuning efforts (accordions only, so far).

 

For fine tuning accordion reeds, I have a hardened (heat to cherry red and quench in water) piece of .030" music wire pressed into a wooden dowel for a handle. This is used to "scratch" the reed to move/remove small amounts of material. Is this an acceptable method with brass reeds?

[m3838]

Thanks. Wonderful