Henk van Aalten Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Pushers & Pullers What are the specific advantages (or disadvantages) of the Jeffries and Wheatstone button lay out for 30b Anglo's? The different lay out's are shown on the "Suttner - site": Wheatstone Jeffries Finally, when you play on more than one anglo, is it advisable to stick to the same button lay out?? thanks for your reactions Henk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharron Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Good one Henk. I am wringing my hands with anticipation of the replies to come Sharron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuart estell Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 What are the specific advantages (or disadvantages) of the Jeffries and Wheatstone button lay out for 30b Anglo's? Finally, when you play on more than one anglo, is it advisable to stick to the same button lay out?? I'm not sure I'm particularly qualified to give an answer, but I can offer a few observations from my own playing: On a 30-key right-hand, with the Jeffries layout, the duplicated Eb/C# C#/Eb keys are certainly handy, in that it makes it possible to play chords of Ab and C minor on the push, amongst other things - which simply aren't possible on the Wheatstone layout with a 30 key. Having the pull G an extra button along in the right hand accidental row is handy as well - it makes it (for me) easier to get at it under certain circumstances, as does the A/D key (push/pull) at the top end of the accidental row. It makes the layout a little less linear, but great in terms of spacing... And in the left hand you get a low A on the bottom button pull of the G-row, rather than a duplicate D, which means you can play a chord of A minor in both directions. I should add that I play in an "English" style pretty exclusively, so I may be more concerned with what chords are available than an Irish-style player might be. As far as playing more than one instrument - my 36-key box is (mostly) in the Wheatstone layout, and I find that I can switch quite easily. Occasionally bad things happen though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexCJones Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 And in the left hand you get a low A on the bottom button pull of the G-row, rather than a duplicate D, which means you can play a chord of A minor in both directions. I agree. The first time I played a 30-key with the duplicate D, I thought it was a mistake. Now if I look a the 2 layout diagrams from the Suttner site that Henk provided, they show both the Wheatstone and the Jeffries layouts with the nice Low A on the left side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Barnert Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Finally!!! A topic I can ignore with impunity. Have a ball, guys. And let me know if someone mentions duet concertinas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henk van Aalten Posted November 18, 2003 Author Share Posted November 18, 2003 Have a ball, guys. And let me know if someone mentions duet concertinas. David This sounds like duet concertina's are heaven as compared with the poor anglo's, struggling with the choice between Jeffries or Wheatstone button lay out. Maybe you can start a topic: "Why duets are heaven" Henk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Barnert Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Have a ball, guys. And let me know if someone mentions duet concertinas. David This sounds like duet concertina's are heaven as compared with the poor anglo's, struggling with the choice between Jeffries or Wheatstone button lay out. Maybe you can start a topic: "Why duets are heaven" I shouldn't have read this. I clicked on the topic out of force of habit. But while I'm here, I will say that I cannot comment on the relative heavenliness of duet systems (I play Hayden) because I don't play any other systems. For all I know, the others are just as heavenly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 (edited) Henk, My first concertina had the Wheatstone layout, and so did my second. I have recently taken delivery of a Bb/F Jeffries which Colin Dipper had restored to its original layout for me (from a rather peculiar arrangement in Bb/F and Ab mostly!). I was immediately struck by the practicality of the Jeffries layout - not so much by the usefulness of the push-pull alternatives it gives (I haven't got fluid enough to appreciate that) so much as by the more sensible range of the right hand accidental row on the Jeffries when compared to the Wheatstone. I am so impressed that I am thinking of going over to the Jeffries layout altogether. But then again, first impressions seem to imply that it is not too bad switching from the one to the other system. Samantha (edited for spelling.) Edited November 18, 2003 by Samantha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Wells Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 I'm surprised that those in this thread have restricted themselves to 30-button layouts, and to Wheatstone vs jeffries. If you're able to order a new instrument I'd really recommend having some extra buttons. I have a new instrument, 32-key, and those 4 extra notes really help. I should say I play mainly Irish style, and to this end some of the tips in a Ken Coles article, which has a link on the home page of the concertina.net site, are very useful. I used some of these ideas, and others of my own when planning my keyboard. I don't think either the Jeffries or Wheatstone layouts are ideal for irish playing. One of the tips i took was to have a double high C# key, instead of the C#/Eb, Eb/C# arrangement (start of the RH accidentals row). certainly having the C# both ways is great for D and A tunes. I have put the double C#'s on an extra button at the inner end of the RH C row ( i.e. right next to the B/C button). I also have an extra low F# on the press, but not on the RH accid row as recommended in the Coles article, but on my other extra button which is at the inner end of the LH C row. In addition I have placed an extra mid-range A on the press at the first button of the RH accid row ( i.e. where the Jeffries and Wheatstones have the C#/Eb) It's a bit of a luxury having the same note 4 times on your keyboard, but this A with the extra pressed F# it gaves me a full D arpeggio on the press ( and linear too) as well as the draw. I felt a bit adventurous mucking round with trad layouts,but they were never designed for my style of playing nor for irish music anyway. and what a difference the alterations have made to my fluency. Even if I had a sacred old J or Wh I'd do the same, and innovate away. Bugger tradition !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuart estell Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 Even if I had a sacred old J or Wh I'd do the same, and innovate away. Bugger tradition !! I see no problem with rearranging layouts, or tweaking them to suit your tastes, but I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say "bugger tradition" - I'd echo what Chris Timson and others have said about being a "custodian" of instruments, especially where modifying vintage boxes is concerned. A concertina is yours while you're alive, but it's going to need playing by someone else when you're gone... The more customized the layout is, the harder it will be for someone else to give it a home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 The more customized the layout is, the harder it will be for someone else to give it a home. And then there are the technical issues of, e.g., modifying reed pans if the changes you want can't be achieved by just moving same-size reeds around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Weinstein Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 I have a foot in both camps, I suppose. I would not make alterations to a Jeffries; in fact, I'd be more interested in a Jeffries in original tuning than one that had been brought to A=440. On the other hand, the concertina I play is an extraordinarily custom piece by Bob Tedrow (it's also an extraordinary instrument, he did an amazing job), in which almost everything is different. The accidental row bears little if any resemblance to anything out there, the D row is dropped by an octave, and the G row is changed (losing, for example, the duplicated D on the press on the 2nd button) to give maximum range within G and D, and to provide (as much as possible) each note in G and D in each bellows direction. --Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jellyroll Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I started on a Wheatstone layout, then changed to a Jeffries layout. I like the Jeffries better. I also agree, its not hard to interchange between the two. Dominio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caj Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I started with a Jeffries-type layout, then moved to a Wheatstone layout. This wasn't due to any preference; it just happened that the box I upgraded to, the box I really liked, had the other layout. That's my one piece of advice about accidental rows: they don't really matter so much that they should prevent you from choosing the otherwise perfect box. That being said: I think the chief advantage of the Jeffries layout is that the useful right-hand accidentals (push C#, pull G, push A) are a bit further to the right and out of the way. Thus they don't tie up the fingers so much. The chief advantage of the Wheatstone layout is that the push C# doesn't interfere with the push E (I use C#EC# triplets and such,) and the push A is also in a nice spot for ornaments or variations. In either case, I recommend using the push C#; if you have a pull C#, reserve it for ornaments, chords or emergencies. This way it's less of a pain to switch between layouts, and one day you just might. Caj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_Coles Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 I also have an extra low F# on the press, but not on the RH accid row as recommended in the Coles article, but on my other extra button which is at the inner end of the LH C row. Two small points... The right side press F# I ordered in my design is not mid-range, it is the upper octave F# (the one you also get on pull on the Right Side G row leftmost button). That box (if it ever actually gets built) will also have a press F# an octave lower on an extra button on the left side. Later I realized that I was getting every note of the G and D scales in both directions over nearly a two octave range. Definitely an Irish slant. Some day I'll try again and design a layout for English/Morris playing! Second point, the layout I gave was _not_ a "recommendation." It was merely a very personal speculation. If that point did not come across then the article is a failure as far as I am concerned. As I noted in another thread I have played both W and J layouts and after you are experienced switching is not a big deal if you practice it a bit. I agree that layout should not keep you from buying a great vintage box with a different setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Second point, the layout I gave was _not_ a "recommendation." It was merely a very personal speculation. If that point did not come across then the article is a failure as far as I am concerned. Ken, have you considered editing/rewriting the article and then updating the copy on concertina.net? You, of all people, should be able to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_Coles Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Sure, everything here is fair game for revision. Right now priorities are a large amount of material submitted by Geo Salley that I should post first (he is generating lots of interesting stuff!), and I still aspire to add an English buyer's guide section. Paul has stuff in his inbox too. Here I was (I'll confess it's egocentric) commenting in a way that suggests I hope people already get the sense from the first round of wordsmithing on that article. BTW I got back to New Hampshire last night and realize I need to write that up (Maritime Fest two months ago; some great photos) and some other stuff too. But this is all a bit tiresome for the rest of you to read. 'Nuf said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Wells Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 the concertina I play is an extraordinarily custom piece by Bob Tedrow in which almost everything is different. Dave can you give us details of your Tedrow's layout. Sound very interesting, and i am still at the stage where I may experiment with my layout. Altho yours is evidently a G/D, I'd still be interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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