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G Rolls.


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I hope I'm replying/posting in the correct section - a bit new to this so apologies.

 

I find it fascinating that there is a discussion as particular as styles of ornamentation - be they rolls, triplets (two finger triplets, three finger triplets) double stops etc etc. It's very interesting. Ornamentation is a very personal thing and I don't think agreement will ever be reached on what is correct or perhaps better. I use a variety to suit the style(s) that I play whether that be traditional Irish or contemporary Irish music. I also think it can depend on the type of tune being played and the accuracy/ability of the player to execute the ornament.

 

I was just curious - do many people alter the roll depending on the key they're playing in - for instance tunes in G - G A G F# G, tunes in C - maybe G C G E G? I often slot in a grace note(s) (cut) from the right hand side to strenghten the roll. there's also the option of changing bellow direction to make the ornament sound choppy. The options are endless.

 

Ciaran O'Grady

Dublin

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I hope I'm replying/posting in the correct section - a bit new to this so apologies.

 

I find it fascinating that there is a discussion as particular as styles of ornamentation - be they rolls, triplets (two finger triplets, three finger triplets) double stops etc etc. It's very interesting. Ornamentation is a very personal thing and I don't think agreement will ever be reached on what is correct or perhaps better. I use a variety to suit the style(s) that I play whether that be traditional Irish or contemporary Irish music. I also think it can depend on the type of tune being played and the accuracy/ability of the player to execute the ornament.

 

I was just curious - do many people alter the roll depending on the key they're playing in - for instance tunes in G - G A G F# G, tunes in C - maybe G C G E G? I often slot in a grace note(s) (cut) from the right hand side to strenghten the roll. there's also the option of changing bellow direction to make the ornament sound choppy. The options are endless.

 

Ciaran O'Grady

Dublin

 

Sorry for the quote hash up...must be the new moon. Ciaran, from my experience in sessions it can also depend on when the tune came into the tradition. A certain flute player once diplomatically objected to my use of a particular triplet ornament in the B part of O'Carolyns Draught saying ole Turlogh would have only been familiar with ornamentation used in the early Baroque music of the day. Well, okay I gave it a go and was very pleased. Now on something like Off to California, I tart it up too much (in my opinion) but the flute player grins and jumps in with me matching my twiddlin' and twaddlin'. For him it came into the tradition later and matched the "romantic" ornamentation I was slinging about. Murky waters for sure.

Edited by Mark Evans
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Ornamentation is a very personal thing.... I use a variety to suit the style(s) that I play whether that be traditional Irish or contemporary Irish music. I also think it can depend on the type of tune being played and the accuracy/ability of the player to execute the ornament.
Ciaran, from my experience in sessions it can also depend on when the tune came into the tradition. A certain flute player once diplomatically objected to my use of a particular triplet ornament in the B part of O'Carolyns Draught saying ole Turlogh would have only been familiar with ornamentation used in the early Baroque music of the day. Well, okay I gave it a go and was very pleased. Now on something like Off to California, I tart it up too much (in my opinion) but the flute player grins and jumps in with me matching my twiddlin' and twaddlin'. For him it came into the tradition later and matched the "romantic" ornamentation I was slinging about. Murky waters for sure.

Very murky. Sounds to me like your flute-playing friend assumes that the Irish learned all their ornaments from contemporary classical musicians from The Continent and didn't have the creativity to invent their own. I find that very hard to believe. I have various sources which say that the cuts, tips, and rolls I'm familiar with are derived from piping, and I'm not aware of bagpipes of any sort playing a prominent part in European classical music of any period.

 

One could argue that the pipes' prominence in Irish music is from a later period than O'Carolan... which is true. But I rather suspect that the travelling harpers had their own (perhaps even each their own) ways of ornamenting their tunes, regardless of what Italian violinists were doing. As far as I know, Carolan is the only one who is reported to have been strongly influenced by the Continental baroque composers, yet his "Concerto" is his only piece that I think actually resembles their work. That he and others would be slavishly copying their ornamentation and not the rest of their style seems dubious.

 

And then I would take into account the fact that many, many individuals have played those tunes in the intervening centuries, even with significant variations in the notes -- O'Neill's alone has three different "settings" of "Planxty Toby Peyton", -- so I'm sure the ornaments, as well.

 

I would say, play what feels and sounds right to you, rather than slaving yourself to someone else's pedantry. Of course, if what they suggest does sound and feel right to you, then go for it! And the caveat: If what you're playing clashes with what someone else is playing, then (at least to me) that will neither sound nor feel "right". If adjusting my own playing -- ornamentation, tempo, or even notes of the tune -- to that of someone else gives a more pleasing combined result than sticking to the way I would do it solo, I'm more than happy to make the adjustment.

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I wouldn't dissagree with any point you've made Jim. The cat assumes much and at times frosts my...well, a southern region of my corpulent corpus. In his defense, my triplet figures were rather over the top, cascading to the floor like Victorian lace. He assumes O'Carolan to be so enamored with Corelli and Telemann that he would have invisioned his ornaments thusly. In the end I rather liked the sparce ornaments and felt I became a part of their sound as opposed to being too much.

 

I think I recall O'Carolan taking a few hits from contemporary harp players on a number of counts, one of which being his interest in continental music. After all Baroque composers were supplanting the modes with a major/minor hegmony that would have done away with the unique character of ITMs soul had it gained a strong foothold.

 

Why the opinionated flautist was content with my Off to California? Stated reason aside, I think he's not fond of the hornpipe (facial expression when someone calls it at session) and was secretly glad I mucked it up to an almost unrecognizable jamble.

 

P.S. Good weekend to all. I'm off to do the bluegrass thing, and this is the last bit of city folk ideas that will cross me mind til Sunday afternoon...Yee-Haw!

Edited by Mark Evans
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another difference between the turn and the roll

dear jim ,as regards baroque music ,we are both right they can be either.however a roll in traditional music is a five note decoration.personally i take the fiddle as the guide because it predates the others it s the original.its the execution that is important . it should be done in one bow which means no jerk if on a wind

instrument, so on a box this involves cross rowing,since you can do less cross rowing on a b c than a g d

IF you want to do rolls its more limited ,however you c an do lots of other ornamentation on a b c trebles etc

just as you can on a g d or c c sharp or

c sharp d but since this came about from mc hale calling a four note a roll which in trad music it is not .flutter is the term i use when demonstrating it , since i have met you ,i have been corrected on my terminology i wouldnt normally bother to be so exact ,but iguess its catching .now iam off to play

DickMiles

Ultimately, does it really matter what a fiddle or a flute player call a roll? We are discussing and (hopefully) playing concertinas. If the general Irish, Anglo Concertina Community wants to call a 4 note ornament a roll, at least if we are playing it in the same place we would play a true roll on another instrument, does it really make much difference what others call it?

 

In any case, this I think is clearly making mountains out of mole hills here. In my initial post I indicated that the 4 note ornaments were not true rolls. I simply used the term for convenience because I have heard other, well respect concertina players call some of things I do rolls and because I use them where I would do a long roll if I was playing the accordion (or I suspect a flute or fiddle).

 

I never, ever, intended to start an argument about terminology here. We have argued these things over and over again and ultimately we end up agreeing to disagree because ultimately different people call different ornaments different things. Billy McComiskey has an ornament he calls a cran that essentially is done by playing the same note 5 times; the middle three times in the same space as the first or third. He acknowledges it is different than a proper cran, but he feels it gives the same rhythmic effect. Is anyone going to argue with him? Maybe, but I don't many people who take lessons from him who will.

 

--

Bill

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yes but if people are trying to communicate it makes things more difficult if a fiddler understands aroll as one thing and a concertna player another,language is about communicating properly.as jim keeps reminding me.DickMiles

 

Yeah, but my point is, that as long as you use them to accomplish a similar effect does it really make much difference? Its not like a concertina player can teach a fiddler how to roll or vice a versa. The techniques used on each instrument are totally alien to one another, even if the notes played are exactly the same (and as often as not, they won't be). If concertina players, or even if just anglo concertina players understand what is meant by a roll when a concertina player says he is doing a roll on a note (and likewise an English Concertina player understands what it means when an English Concertina says he is doing a roll) I think that is what really matters. Ultimately the most important form of communication in music is actually playing.

 

--

Bill

Edited by bill_mchale
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G C GG AND VARIATIONS OF THIS, NO WAY IS THIs A ROLL. ...... OVER AND OUT Dick Miles

 

 

Ah ha! So you do have a shift key ! :)

 

 

Clive.

YES BUT ITS VERY UNTRUSTWORTHY RATHER SHIFTY but as iam fairly new to this. iwould appreciate your tolerance.

 

RE: "iwould appreciate your tolerance."

 

Dick,

 

You've got it (my tolerance). My posting was made after reading through some of your postings. Then I came across all those capitals in one place, and in the heat of the moment I couldn't resist the comment.

My apologies.

 

Clive.

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yes but if people are trying to communicate it makes things more difficult if a fiddler understands aroll as one thing and a concertna player another,language is about communicating properly.as jim keeps reminding me.DickMiles

 

Yeah, but my point is, that as long as you use them to accomplish a similar effect does it really make much difference? Its not like a concertina player can teach a fiddler how to roll or vice a versa. The techniques used on each instrument are totally alien to one another, even if the notes played are exactly the same (and as often as not, they won't be). If concertina players, or even if just anglo concertina players understand what is meant by a roll when a concertina player says he is doing a roll on a note (and likewise an English Concertina player understands what it means when an English Concertina says he is doing a roll) I think that is what really matters. Ultimately the most important form of communication in music is actually playing.

 

--

Bill

the techni ques used on each instrument are totally alien to one another.they are the same

 

a fiddle roll is played on one bow it should be executed smoothly, to obtain this effect on tina or

box you will need to cross row to avoid jerkiness. apart from an english or duet obvi ously.

COME TO MYWORKSHOPWITH THE JUBILEE PLAYERS SAT APRIL 8 IN CHORLEY LANCS I MIGHT BUY YOU A PINT AFTERWARDS.DickMiles

 

The sought after effect might be the same, the techniques certainly are not. Concertinas use buttons, fiddles use the bow and strings to effect a roll (how many i am not sure, since I don't play fiddle). If a fiddle player asked us how to roll, we could show them the effect, but they would have to figure out the technique on his own. Obviously this exempts any of us who actually do play the fiddle.

 

--

Bill

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G C GG AND VARIATIONS OF THIS, NO WAY IS THIs A ROLL. ...... OVER AND OUT Dick Miles
Ah ha! So you do have a shift key ! :)
YES BUT ITS VERY UNTRUSTWORTHY RATHER SHIFTY but as iam fairly new to this. iwould appreciate your tolerance.

Never took a typing course, eh? Well, you're not alone.

 

But I recommend that you take some time practicing in the Test Forum sub-Forum here on C.net. And here are some suggestions as to what to practice:

... 1) When you're in the composition window (the white rectangle with the smaller rectangle of smilies to its left) always use the "Preview Post" button, never the "Add Reply" button. Then to exit or start over always use your browser's "Back" button (left-pointing arrow at the upper left in your browser), and you can practice to your heart's content, each time viewing the results and how what you have done has changed them, without ever actually posting a result for others to see. (Otherwise, it's a bit like working up new concertina arrangements in front of a paying audience.)

... 2) The above quotes suggest to me that what you're using is not the "shift" keys (of which there are two, one on each side of the main keyboard), but the "shift lock" key. The shift keys are to be used for capitalizing individual letters (or for getting the additional special characters shown at the top of certain keys, such as "<", "%", and "@" on a UK-layout keyboard), and these shift keys need to be held down while pressing the other keys. To use the shift lock key, it is clicked (pressed and released) before you press the other keys, after which all letters will be capitalized (but special-character keys will not produce their upper characters) until you click "shift lock" again, after which normal lower-case characters will result. (Also, if you use the shift keys while shift lock is on, it will cause individual keys to generate lower-case letters.)

... 3) If something is typed in incorrectly, it can be edited in various ways. The simplest is to use the mouse to highlight the imperfect text (see next) and then just retype it. This should replace the highlighted text (actually, delete it and then insert the new text in its place). If you highlight some text and click the "Delete" key, it will do just that... remove it. You can also insert text anywhere by positioning the text cursor where you want to insert (do this by positioning the mouse cursor, then clicking the main -- probably left -- mouse button), then simply typing. The new text will be inserted before the character that's to the right of the text cursor. Also, clicking the "Delete" key with nothing highlighted will delete the character to the right of the text cursor, while clicking the backspace key will delete the character to the left of the text cursor.

... 4) There are two main ways to highlight a section of text: First is to position the mouse cursor at the beginning of the text you want to highlight, then press the (left) button and without releasing the button, drag the mouse cursor to the end of the text you want to highlight, then release the button. The other way is to click the mouse button with the mouse cursor at the beginning of the text you want to highlight, then move the mouse cursor to the end of the text you wish to highlight and shift-click (i.e., click while holding down a shift key... and not shift-lock).

... 5) These editing techniques can be used to delete from within a quote text which is not relevant to the comment you're making in reply, and to indicate that you've done so -- i.e., that it's no longer a complete quote -- by inserting ellipses (...) or a note in square brackets (e.g., "[details deleted for brevity]"). But you need to be careful to not delete all or part of any system tags -- i.e., text within square brackets that you didn't put there, yourself, -- because that will screw up things like quoting, italics, etc.

 

I look forward to seeing the results of your practice with this non-concertina keyboard in the way you "arrange" your future posts. :)

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