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G Rolls.


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Ok, this came up in another thread and it got me thinking. Dick Miles mentioned that one could play a true G roll on the Concertina by playing it on the draw. Essentially you play G on the Accidental row, A on the C row, G on the Accidental row, F# and then back to the G. Or to make it easier to read G A G F# G. So I guess my question is, is that a common way of playing it that way? Right now, depending on the tune, in places where I would roll on the button Accordion, I either play G G C G, G C G G or G E C G. Sometimes I will combine the roll with an Octave on the initial G.

 

So I am curious, how many people play the true G roll and how many people play it a different way. I would be particularly interested in hearing about other possible ways to roll the G.

 

--

Bill

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I sometimes play a variation on the buttons described, but leave out the middle G to have a simple G-A-F#-G pattern. I started in playing the full five-note pattern but I guess I became lazy after a time.

 

My County Clare has a push F# on the right-side accidental button (2nd from top) so it's possible to do an all-push pattern starting with the C row G, then accidental row A, right side F# and back to the C row G to finish. I almost never use that pattern though, since only my Clare will support it. I decided I was better off building coordination on the left side combination that I could use on any of my concertinas.

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Don't know if the roll you and dick described is common, bill, and don't care either, I use it and Bruce's variation plenty anyway. :P

 

I also play one on the right side too, on my Jeffries layout Morse, an octave higher: accidental-row middle finger g, c-row ring finger a, back to the g, G-row index finger f#, then back to the accidental g.

 

I know there are rolls and turns hidden all over my 'tina, and when I find one, I use it mercilessly. :o

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Bill what you are doin is probably very good but its not a roll, using correct terminology is important a roll was originally a violin ornamentation found in classical music ,as well ,and is g a g f sharp g in the same way a mordant is something specific .as is a turn, a cut, a double cut. a cran a treble . D Miles

 

Well I was saying what I would do where I would do a roll on the button accordion. Now I know a fiddle player plays a roll slightly differently, but every box player I know calls a GCGF#G or GBGF#G a roll. I think the general consensus that seems to exist has been a roll would be any place where you play the note, play a higher pitched note, play the note, play a lower pitched note and finally play the note a final time. There does seem to be some variation between classical terminology and as it is used in folk music.. and likely to be some variation from instrument to instrument.

 

--

Bill

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Bill what you are doin is probably very good but its not a roll, using correct terminology is important a roll was originally a violin ornamentation found in classical music ,as well ,and is g a g f sharp g in the same way a mordant is something specific .as is a turn, a cut, a double cut. a cran a treble .
Well I was saying what I would do where I would do a roll on the button accordion. Now I know a fiddle player plays a roll slightly differently, but every box player I know calls a GCGF#G or GBGF#G a roll. I think the general consensus that seems to exist has been a roll would be any place where you play the note, play a higher pitched note, play the note, play a lower pitched note and finally play the note a final time. There does seem to be some variation between classical terminology and as it is used in folk music.. and likely to be some variation from instrument to instrument.

"What is a roll" has been discussed before (no time to look up the link at the moment), and I think the prinicpal conclusion to be drawn is that the particular ornament which is given the name "roll" is different from instrument to instrument, and often even from player to player of the same instrument. At least on the whistle the details of a G roll may be varied even from tune to tune by a single individual, and by some players even within a single tune.

 

As for a classical ornament known as a "roll", that's a new one to me. Although I'm not conservatory trained, I did play in orchestras for many years, so I would expect to have at least heard of such.

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BUT BILL WHAT YOU ORIGINALLY DESCRIBEDWAS A FOUR NOTE ORNAMENT THAT IS NOT A ROLL

iagreethat they can vary from instrument to instrument even sometimes they have been played on the fiddle b d b a b as wellas b c b a b but since the violin predates the uillean pipes and the box it was originally a fiddle ornament .a good word for your ornament might be a flutter.ihave heard them described thus

 

Sigh, I am starting to think you just like disagreeing with me Dick. I acknowledged that they were not true rolls in my original post. Yes, I do tend to call them rolls, because I have often heard them described that way by various players both here and in the real world; I also call them rolls because those ornaments give a similar effect to the tune when I pull them off right.

 

--

Bill

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As for a classical ornament known as a "roll", that's a new one to me. Although I'm not conservatory trained, I did play in orchestras for many years, so I would expect to have at least heard of such.
well jim its found in early classical music .in baroque music they are called turns but they are the sme thing.

... 1) The word "roll" is not the same as the word "turn".

... 2) The baroque "turn" is not the same as the ornaments called "rolls" by the pipers, fiddlers, whistlers, etc. that I'm familiar with.

 

An Irish "roll" on a fiddle may involve the same notes as a baroque "turn", but the relative durations of the individual notes in the "roll" are normally quite different from those in the "turn", which makes it a very different ornament. I.e., it sounds different. And most "rolls" on the whistle, flute, or pipes use note intervals quite different from those in a baroque "turn", as well.

 

would you call a scrambled egg an omelette.no

You don't know that for sure. (No smiley.)

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BUT BILL WHAT YOU ORIGINALLY DESCRIBEDWAS A FOUR NOTE ORNAMENT THAT IS NOT A ROLL

iagreethat they can vary from instrument to instrument even sometimes they have been played on the fiddle b d b a b as wellas b c b a b but since the violin predates the uillean pipes and the box it was originally a fiddle ornament .a good word for your ornament might be a flutter.ihave heard them described thus

 

Sigh, I am starting to think you just like disagreeing with me Dick. I acknowledged that they were not true rolls in my original post. Yes, I do tend to call them rolls, because I have often heard them described that way by various players both here and in the real world; I also call them rolls because those ornaments give a similar effect to the tune when I pull them off right.

 

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Bill

what you describe if played in jig time is known to fiddlers as a treble g a gg . i got the impression you enjoyed disagreeing with me. funny because you were the original challenger of my attempt to debunk the myth that the g d was incompatible with irish music .

 

I will not, will not get dragged back into this debate. I never was challenging the idea that you could play Irish Music in the g d, I was challenging the notion that it was more suitable than the B/C and the C#/D. I still believe that the latter two are better suited to Irish Music. That is my last word on the subject and I am going to ignore any more posts relating to it. The argument has gone on long enough.

 

--

Bill

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I'd like to offer the following thought to calm the discussions of terminology in Irish music.

 

A tradition which has two-note triplets, three-note triplets, and even four-note triplets is always going to leave room for disagreement between the best of friends.

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What would be the name for all these "rolls", "cranes", "double stops" etc.?

I mean a slang name. Give me something funny. In Russian they are generally called

"the knee" or rather "the joint", where the "Knee" is equivalent of English "U-Joint" in a pipe system. Or we would say "he played with alot of twists (or rather "wiggles").

To play with lots of "wiggles" is considered a top shtick for folk accordionist.

I'd like to know the slang for this, because it may put an end to the disagreemnet, whether it's a true roll, a fake roll, a crane or a tripple booger - they all can be called "the wiggles". So a musician can say, "the Irish style is unique, because it is played with lots of wiggles". or "the french style is unique, because you need to know lots of wiggles to sound authentic". Or likewise about Cajun, German, Russian etc. unique styles.

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There are a couple of common names in English.

You've seen them here many times:

"ornament"

and

"decoration"

 

Ah, now those terms I'm familiar with. The others are very cute though and I shall endevor to employ them in a rehearsal coming up with me opera colleagues. The mezzo ornaments her ornaments (something I have been accused of in Irish music...I'm reforming...honest). Perhaps refering to her excess "twiddles" or a variant "twaddles" might get a reaction. Never the term "rolls" around an opera singer. Most of us tend toward being well fed but always an eye out for a quick knosh :P .

Edited by Mark Evans
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... 2) The baroque "turn" is not the same as the ornaments called "rolls" by the pipers, fiddlers, whistlers, etc. that I'm familiar with.

 

An Irish "roll" on a fiddle may involve the same notes as a baroque "turn", but the relative durations of the individual notes in the "roll" are normally quite different from those in the "turn", which makes it a very different ornament. I.e., it sounds different. And most "rolls" on the whistle, flute, or pipes use note intervals quite different from those in a baroque "turn", as well.

please elucidate,lets hear your interpretation of aroll and a baroque turn.

Sure, but "lets hear" yours, too. In particular, if you disagree with me on any point, please be as precise in expressing the difference as I am in my own description.

 

For my understanding of the "roll" and related ornaments on non-free reed instruments in Irish music, please look here.

 

The baroque "turn" (as I understand it; I hope others with more training will correct me if I'm wrong) consists of 4 notes, not the 5 (or 3 with "separators") of the usual Irish "roll". Notewise on a fiddle, I think it would be equivalent to a "short roll", but in the "turn" all 4 notes are given equal prominence (and usually, though not necessarily, equal length), while in the "roll" the "cut" and "tip" are both much shorter and de-emphasized as "notes" in comparison to the repetitions of the principal note.

 

When a "turn" is appended to a longer note, the whole forms a 5-note wavelike form, which on the fiddle uses the same notes as a "roll" on the same note, but usually the first note of the "turn" is longer than the rest, and those rest are treated as equal to each other in prominence, just as in the unattached "turn". As described on the above link, the corresponding roll would consist of 3 distinct repetitions of the principal note (usually either of equal length, or with the first repetition lengthened and the second shortened but still clear), separated by a "cut" and "tip" of as short a duration as possible.

 

Another difference between the "turn" and the "roll" is that the "in-between" notes of the "turn" are the same on all instruments, while those in the "roll" -- particularly the "cut", as explained in more detail at the above link -- are frequently different on the flute, whistle and pipes than on the fiddle and other stringed instruments.

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[

The baroque "turn" (as I understand it; I hope others with more training will correct me if I'm wrong) consists of 4 notes, not the 5 (or 3 with "separators") of the usual Irish "roll". Notewise on a fiddle, I think it would be equivalent to a "short roll", but in the "turn" all 4 notes are given equal prominence (and usually, though not necessarily, equal length), while in the "roll" the "cut" and "tip" are both much shorter and de-emphasized as "notes" in comparison to the repetitions of the principal note.

 

Went to Dominique with that one Jim. "What is a turn in Baroque music?" She sang a 5 note turn according each note equal prominence and length (nice way to start the day actually). 4 as opposed to 5 she says is a debate. I understood it to be 4 but am at the shallow end of the gene pool on Baroque period performance practice <_< .

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