Castiglione Concertina

[pmmack]

Hello,

 

I just purchased one of these concertinas from Elderly in Lansing. The sound is big for a one reed box and the size is a bit larger than my other concetinas. Are Castigliones real concertinas, or just hiding in a concertina-like set up? I really like this box, but just wanted to inquire. Bellows are also much tighter than my other two 'tinas.

[Daniel Hersh]

I've been curious about these myself, though I haven't had one in hand. They're made somewhere in Germany, and I wonder if they might be made by Silvetta/Schaumanufaktur. Here is a picture of a Silvetta that looks vaguely close to the Castiglione , though it's hard to tell much from an exterior photo.

 

If it is indeed a Silvetta, Klaus Guhl who posts here owns one and speaks highly of its quality for the price. He's put some recordings of himself playing it on the links page. But the Castiglione might come from another German maker too.

 

As to whether it's "real", the Germans were making 20 button diatonic concertinas before the English were, so it's real in my book...but if you're talking about internal design, are you able to open it up and take a look?

 

Daniel

 

Hello,

 

I just purchased one of these concertinas from Elderly in Lansing. The sound is big for a one reed box and the size is a bit larger than my other concetinas. Are Castigliones real concertinas, or just hiding in a concertina-like set up? I really like this box, but just wanted to inquire. Bellows are also much tighter than my other two 'tinas.

[m3838]

>the Germans were making 20 button diatonic concertinas before the English were, so it's real in my >book...but if you're talking about internal design, are you able to open it up and take a look?

 

Well, let's put it this way: the germans were making first Anglo-concertinas, meaning - they were making cheap versions of diatonic accordions in the shape of English made concertinas. So in every aspect they never were, nor are "real" concertinas. Inside you'll find either the reedbank, or reeds laying flat in the line.

If they were square, with reeds in thick metal shoes, or on one thick copper plate, with good bellows, good quality reeds - they'd be real in every aspect. So far - you wish.

As far as Castiglione accordions go, not that good. In fact, John Castiglione urged me not to buy one of his brands after I described to him what I want. I tried Castiglione Club - nah. Not there yet.

[Chris Timson]

Well, let's put it this way: the germans were making first Anglo-concertinas, meaning - they were making cheap versions of diatonic accordions in the shape of English made concertinas. So in every aspect they never were, nor are "real" concertinas.

Historically, the Germans produced the first 20 button diatonic concertinas and exported them to England in large numbers. The anglo concertina (short for Anglo-German) was the response of the English concertina makers to the German newcomer.

 

Personally I would regard the Castiglione as a "real" concertina, though unfortunately I have no view on its quality. I would suggest, though, that if you can make your budget stretch to a 30 button instrument from someone like Stagi then in the long run you won't regret it.

 

Chris

[m3838]

>Historically, the Germans produced the first 20 button diatonic concertinas and exported them to England in large >numbers.

 

So Wheatstone patented "concertina", but Germans were first to make it?

I think they were making expencive posh 6-12 sided instruments in Englad, that were popular and

Germans started making cheap emulations, but in the familiar system, so the buttonbox players could immediately switch and make believe thay are playing a "concertina". Probably had to do with getting female attention (nothing's wrong with that). It cought up. But for all it's worth German made instruments weren't "real" concertinas, but rather accordions in disguise. They have become real back in England because of the common sence design of the reed pan and reeds, but not the cheap ones.

Speaking stricktly design-wise, nothing serious. Something like a pen in the shape of a rocket. I have a problem with it.

[Daniel Hersh]

"So Wheatstone patented "concertina", but Germans were first to make it? I think they were making expencive posh 6-12 sided instruments in Englad, that were popular and Germans started making cheap emulations, but in the familiar system, so the buttonbox players could immediately switch and make believe thay are playing a "concertina".

 

This is totally speculative and I don't believe that it's historically accurate. It's my impression that the original German instruments, from Uhlig's invention of the predecessor of what we now call the Anglo in 1834, were made for the German market -- and there's no evidence that Wheatstone's English concertina was popular in Germany at that time. According to Stephen Chambers (see http://www.concertina.com/chambers/michaelstein/ ) German (much later called "Anglo") concertinas didn't become popular in England until the 1850's.

 

"But for all it's worth German made instruments weren't "real" concertinas, but rather accordions in disguise."

 

Meaning what? One could justifiably make that statement about a Stagi because of its accordion-style reeds and reed blocks, but I don't believe that German concertinas are generally built that way.

 

"They have become real back in England because of the common sence design of the reed pan and reeds."

 

It's not unusual for a German-made concertina to have reeds mounted flat on the reed pan just like an English-made one. And the "long-plate" German reed design did differ from the English (and accordion-style!) single-frame design, but I don't think that it's intrinsically inferior.

 

"I have a problem with it."

 

Indeed. But why?

 

The best German-made "concertinas" (such as the Alfred Arnold bandoneons) were fine instruments and not accordion knock-offs in any way. It's true that the 20 and 30 button German concertinas were not of that caliber, but I don't think it's because there's something intrinsically wrong with the traditional German construction methods. I believe that it had more to do with the low-end segment of the British Isles market that those smaller concertinas were made for and the amount of investment that went into them as a result.

 

There are others on c.net who know far more about this than I and may disagree...

 

Daniel

Edited March 8, 2006 by Daniel Hersh

[Dan Worrall]

>Historically, the Germans produced the first 20 button diatonic concertinas and exported them to England in large >numbers.

 

So Wheatstone patented "concertina", but Germans were first to make it?

I think they were making expencive posh 6-12 sided instruments in Englad, that were popular and

Germans started making cheap emulations, but in the familiar system, so the buttonbox players could immediately switch and make believe thay are playing a "concertina". Probably had to do with getting female attention (nothing's wrong with that). It cought up. But for all it's worth German made instruments weren't "real" concertinas, but rather accordions in disguise. They have become real back in England because of the common sence design of the reed pan and reeds, but not the cheap ones.

Speaking stricktly design-wise, nothing serious. Something like a pen in the shape of a rocket. I have a problem with it.

Now is when we need Stephen Chambers for some history, but as he is not around, I'll try my best.

Wheatstone patented the symphonium in 1829, and the English system concertina in 1844. The English system concertina is as similar to an anglo concertina as a harp is to a guitar (the latter both have strings, and the former both have buttons and bellows).

 

The development of diatonic free reed instruments dates back to Germany ca. 1825 (the harmonica) and Austria in 1829 (accordion). The invention of the diatonic german "Konzertina" is credited to Karl Uhlig in Germany in about 1834 or earlier. And no, it was not a six-sided rip-off of English design, as it was square ended like an accordion (the basic idea was to take the right side of an accordion and saw it in half). As Chris mentioned, these German concertinas were exported all over the globe...and it was the English makers who appropriated this more popular keyboard design and made it their own, adding the hexagonal shape....hence the term Anglo-German (now shortened to 'anglo'). The early anglo (then termed 'german') concertina players in England were mostly using German-made models until the 1850's.

 

It seems that Wheatstone actually may have borrowed part of his 1844 patent directly from the Germans; specifically this is the part that deals with keyboard designs other than the English system (here I quote Neil Wayne):

"The 'Duet' model described by Wheatstone in his 1844 patent and produced commercially in small quantities by Wheatstone & Co, was only a 24-key instrument and did not appear to have been a success. The factory records of the time describe the instrument as a 'Duette' and sales were poor. The design of the Wheatstone 'Duette' was probably based on the German concertina first patented by Uhlig in the late 1820s. Wheatstone used a similar rectangular body and simple brass levers with integral brass-capped buttons, stamped with their note-names, in common with the design of the earliest German 'press-draw' diatonic 10 and 20 key concertinas, and fitted his version with leather hand-straps on raised metal hand-bars. Internally, there is a simple rectilinear reed pan occupying the lower half of the bellows frame only, a design feature which is also similar to the early German concertinas. Wheatstone may even have produced examples of his version of the German diatonic concertina, for the fourth fingering system described in his 1844 patent is a modified two-row diatonic German style layout on a larger than usual six-sided body, but no such instrument now survives."

 

And while we are on the subject, the first published use of the term concertina may well be that by Uhlig in the 1830's (or even in the 1820's according to Neil Wayne above). Although Wheatstone built an English system prototype concertina in 1829, along with his symphonium patent, he seems not to have used the term concertina for his business until 1842, and his concertina patent is dated 1844 (all this from Neil Wayne). So.......it may well be that Wheatstone even got the idea for the word concertina from the Germans. Perhaps someone could shed more light on that. At any rate, Wheatstone's considerable genius lay in inventing the English system, not the anglo. (later edit: Oops! Stephen Chambers seems to have addressed this point in a 2004 forum, and made a good case that Wheatstones were the first to use the term in the 1830's; he thinks the Germans appropriated the term only after 1851, probably for marketing. Prior to that time, going back to Uhlig, the german concertina was termed an accordion.)(Second edit: just an interesting footnote, but not interesting enough for another posting: Maria Dunkel, in her 1987 book Bandonion und Konzertina, notes that the composer Hector Belioz, in his 1840 treatise on orchestral instruments, expressed a clear distinction between Enlish concertinas and German concertinas. THis means that both instruments were openly called concertinas by 1840, 11 years before the date 1851 mentioned by Stephen for the introduction of the term 'german concertina' in Germany. Regardless of when the term actually arrived, Stephen's main hypothesis still seems valid: that the English concertina received the name first. The early nineteenth century saw an explosion of technology across Europe with regards to free reed instruments, and it partly explains the resulting confused and overlapping terms. Dunkel has a whole section in her book about the origins of the many names of free reed instruments that rapidly evolved: accordion, concertina, Konzertina, bandonion, Chemnitzer concertina, melodium, harmonium, handaeoline...etc etc. The common argument whether german concertinas and chemnitzers are 'real' concertinas or are instead accordions is an example of the confusions that linger still.

 

These sorts of things tend to travel in circles. Except for the highest end anglos made today, mid range and economy model anglos both use accordion reeds....which takes them back to their very German roots. And when Juergen Suttner, a German, makes his high end concertinas with English style reeds, it is just more evidence of the reverberation and cross-fertilization between England and Germany with regard to anglo concertinas. Regardless of construction techniques, both English and German made anglos are best played with reasonable quantities of beer.

Edited March 11, 2006 by Dan Worrall

[Daniel Hersh]

Thanks, Dan. Here's a pic of a square Wheatstone "duett" and here's one (see the second one on the page) of a contemporary German concertina, illustrating Neil Wayne's point.

 

(here I quote Neil Wayne):

"The 'Duet' model described by Wheatstone in his 1844 patent and produced commercially in small quantities by Wheatstone & Co, was only a 24-key instrument and did not appear to have been a success. The factory records of the time describe the instrument as a 'Duette' and sales were poor. The design of the Wheatstone 'Duette' was probably based on the German concertina first patented by Uhlig in the late 1820s. Wheatstone used a similar rectangular body and simple brass levers with integral brass-capped buttons, stamped with their note-names, in common with the design of the earliest German 'press-draw' diatonic 10 and 20 key concertinas, and fitted his version with leather hand-straps on raised metal hand-bars. Internally, there is a simple rectilinear reed pan occupying the lower half of the bellows frame only, a design feature which is also similar to the early German concertinas. Wheatstone may even have produced examples of his version of the German diatonic concertina, for the fourth fingering system described in his 1844 patent is a modified two-row diatonic German style layout on a larger than usual six-sided body, but no such instrument now survives."

 

And while we are on the subject, the first published use of the term concertina may well be that by Uhlig in the 1830's (or even in the 1820's according to Neil Wayne above). Although Wheatstone built an English system prototype concertina in 1829, along with his symphonium patent, he seems not to have used the term concertina for his business until 1842, and his concertina patent is dated 1844 (all this from Neil Wayne). So.......it may well be that Wheatstone even got the idea for the word concertina from the Germans. Perhaps someone could shed more light on that. At any rate, Wheatstone's considerable genius lay in inventing the English system, not the anglo.

[m3838]

Oh, so it was Germans, who invented Anglo-German concertina, exported them, and it was the English, who put Anglo into a foreign 6 sided body.

Hm.

Why then concertinas, produced in Germany, are 6-sided? What's the point?

P.S.

I have a problem with rockett shaped pen, because a rocket is not a pen, and a pen is not a rocket. Each has it's own function, and as a result - shape, that fits it the best.

[JimLucas]

Historically, the Germans produced the first 20 button diatonic concertinas and exported them to England in large numbers.

So Wheatstone patented "concertina", but Germans were first to make it?

That's not what Chris said, which is good, because it's not true.

 

Wheatstone patented ... the English system concertina in 1844.

Not so.

 

Since this has developed into a discussion of concertina history rather than Castiglione concertinas, I have posted a more extensive reply, elaborating my above terse answers, in the Concertina History subForum.

 

[Edited to correct a couple of inadvertent inaccuracies in quoting.]

Edited March 11, 2006 by JimLucas

[JimLucas]

Oh, so it was Germans, who invented Anglo-German concertina, exported them, and it was the English, who put Anglo into a foreign 6 sided body.

Hm.

Why then concertinas, produced in Germany, are 6-sided? What's the point?

I'm not absolutely sure of the timeline here, but I believe it happened this way:

... The English and Germans each independently started producing their different instruments, all of which we now call "concertina".

... German instruments, which were square and also cheap, were imported into England, where they became popular.

... English makers, to take advantage of the German instrument's popularity, started making "concertinas" with the same German-style keyboard but their own internal and external construction.

... It quickly became known that the English "anglo German" concertinas were of superior quality.

... German makers, to take advantage of the English instruments' reputation for quality, started making their instruments to imitate the English ones in external appearance. I guess that's similar to what's motivating the current makers of imitation "Rolex" watches.

 

Marketing gimmicks seem to be a universal value.

[pmmack]

OK, so my new 'tina is a real 'tina!

 

I just want to say that the tone and intonation are very, very good on the Castiglione German made concertina, compared to my 3 month old Hohner and 4 month old Stagi. The bellows are very airtight, compared to the Stagi, which was bought brand new from Baldoni accordion in Menomonee Falls--that Stagi plays well, but leaks like a sieve. The little Hohner is still my favorite, bought from the Button Box in MA, is airtight, but starting to get wiggly buttons from all the hard use. My students use the Stagi and Hohner, I pretty much stick to the Casti now, as the sound is so much fuller than the other two. Perhaps those reeds are mounted different than the others, as the sound is very unique.

 

I actually have started a little concertina club at my grade school on Fridays at the lunch break. The little ones are playing along with me on most any tune imagineable! Pizza and 'tinas--does it get any better?!!

 

A Most Blessed Feast of St. Patrick to You and Yours!

[m3838]

You got me interested.

I wonder if Castiglione can arrange unique tuning as well.

I'll contact him.

[Paul Read]

OK, so my new 'tina is a real 'tina!

 

I don't know the name but it sounds like this is a concertina with accordion reeds mounted in the same manner as they are in accordions (in a reed block). It is different to the traditional english style with'concertina' reeds mounted flat on a reed pan or the modern 'hybrids' that have accordion reeds mounted flat on a reed pan.

 

or do I stand to be corrected.................

 

I think the previous responses suggest that all of these can be called concertinas.

[Daniel Hersh]

There's no way to tell without opening the concertina up. At least some of the German-made "Anglos" have reeds mounted flat on the reed pan. I don't know whether those reeds are "concertina reeds" or "accordion reeds", or even for that matter if there's an agreed-upon definition of those terms....

 

Daniel

 

OK, so my new 'tina is a real 'tina!

 

I don't know the name but it sounds like this is a concertina with accordion reeds mounted in the same manner as they are in accordions (in a reed block). It is different to the traditional english style with'concertina' reeds mounted flat on a reed pan or the modern 'hybrids' that have accordion reeds mounted flat on a reed pan.

 

or do I stand to be corrected.................

 

I think the previous responses suggest that all of these can be called concertinas.

[m3838]

There are two ways the reeds are fit into a cheap concertina.

1 - a reed block. All Chinese instruments that I have seen, have reedblock GLUED to the "reedpan", or call it the "action pan".

2 - reeds lay flat over little chambers. These can be fit into individual reed plates, or on single plate, as in older instruments.

I have no problem with "accordion" reeds on a reedblock and action seems to work just fine. It's the little things, that spelled "bean counters", that annoy me. Bad reeds of soft steel, too thin reedplates, large gaps in a reed assembly, soft alluminum used for the plates (or shoes), synthetic rags instead of leather gaskets, and in one case of East German Schooler, the bellows were made of synthetic "leather", that crumbled off and left only a transparent nylon mesh at the seems. It was like pumping two sides of concertina without any bellows connecting them. Add impresize cut of the action board, poor fitting of all the parts, wood screws driven in without even pre-drilling, soft button pads and misalligned reed tounges - a perfect German/Chinese concertina.

From experience in other field I sence that these problems are not inherent, but the people, who make these instruments, just want larger margin of profit and think only of today. Doesn't take much to sit down and make a pipeline for more precision, that woul work for years and make vastly better instruments. After all, there are many intermediate ukuleles produced, but of all in the range of $200 the Flea, Applause and the famous Fluke rain.

Flea and Fluke are american made and the Applause is made in the Philippines. Inexpencive, but the quality! The sound!

[Animaterra]

I actually have started a little concertina club at my grade school on Fridays at the lunch break. The little ones are playing along with me on most any tune imagineable! Pizza and 'tinas--does it get any better?!!

 

Do the little ones all have 'tinas??? Did the school purchase them? More details, please!

 

Allison-the-grade-schoo-music-teacher

[pmmack]

I actually have started a little concertina club at my grade school on Fridays at the lunch break. The little ones are playing along with me on most any tune imagineable! Pizza and 'tinas--does it get any better?!!

 

Do the little ones all have 'tinas??? Did the school purchase them? More details, please!

 

Allison-the-grade-schoo-music-teacher

 

No, they just pass the extra two boxes around the room. I only have 8 students, with dozens more trying to join, but I just do not have the instruments yet. And no, they are using my Hohner and Stagi and I stick to my newest Casti. I let them take the boxes home over the weekend, which really gives them a chance to doodle around on their own tunes. As for the pizza, well I enjoy that as much as they do and it gives a real break from the cafeteria food!

 

BTW, we have about 80 kids in band, some which were featured last year on the VH1 Honors Convocation. They were on cable TV all summer. This is a Music Festival year, so our 4 and 5 graders will be in the Elementary Chorus of about 2800 kids, 200 of which will be mine! About a dozen 2nd years will be in the elementary honors band, which for the convocation last year had about 180 or so (with about 250 in the elementary orchestra!). Half the trombone line last spring was from my school and my studio.

 

I really have to thank VH1 for providing grants for our public schools, to reinstitute grade school band programs in our community! I am very lucky to have not only another band director under me (who works with the woodwinds, leaving me the brass and percussion), but also a very good piano person who works with the younger students. Tests scores are improving, as research has shown, most especially with the younger grades, now that they have exposure to good music and vocal training!

 

Next Thursday my ceilidh band is coming to school to put on a concert for St. Patrick's Day. You think the baby 'tina players are cute?, you should see the baby bodhran and spoon players who will be sitting in with us at "The Scattering". It is a sight to behold and great exposure for them. Opens up a whole new world of music, especially when they see their teacher up there backing up the piper on melodeon and bodhran!