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Anglo Top - English Flop ?


nils

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Are you saying that concertina is well established musical instrument? No, it's not.

Yes, it is. "Well established" is not the same as "dominant". It exists in one or more stable communities, and has done so for more than 150 years, though the size, separation and other characteristics of those communities may have varied over time. That is "well established". (Maybe not as "well established" as the coelacanth or cockroach, but maybe we should check back again after a few hundred million years. :))

 

...women, -- who for social or other reasons couldn't play a real violin.
What were those reasons? I'm not aware of them.

There have been Topics here on C.net discussing that very fact. Apparently, it was considered "inappropriate" for women to play certain instruments, the violin and flute among them. But the concertina was acceptable.

 

Are you saying that majority of "drawing Room's" musicians were women? Interesting.

In fact, what I said was, "...'drawing room' musicians ... -- particularly women, -- who for social or other reasons couldn't play a real violin." I.e., not that drawing room musicians were particularly women, but (as your previous question seems to recognize) that particularly women might be "unable" to play violin, for the reason I've just given. (I suppose I shouldn't have assumed familiarity with the previous discussions on that topic.) Then there were those -- not just women -- who simply found the violin or flute too difficult but found the concertina less problematic.

 

The "Boer" tradition includes Englishes and duets (both Crane and Maccann) as well as anglos.
I looked it up. Seems to me that true Boer sound comes from cheap 20 button Anglo-German. I'm sure overpriced ECs and Duets were and are present too. But it's those cheap ones that made it happened. In Irish as well.

Hmm. Where did you look it up? It sounds to me like you're describing either the black South African ("squashbox") tradition, or the 100-years-past beginnings of the contemporary "Boer" (Dutch-descended South African) tradition, which has long since evolved beyond the 20-button anglo. Listen to Zak van der Vyver and Regardt de Bruin on the Anglo International CD to know some of what I am talking about. There's more, though, as groups with several instruments, including more than one concertina, were/are apparently also common.

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me='nils meyn' date='Jan 30 2006, 10:18 AM' post='32957']

 

What can we english players do for our instrument?

 

Nils

 

Play the beast until your fingers are well worn out every day! As far as tutors for folk and Jazz...for me it's best to just explore. They are unwritten forms at least from their origins. Grab some recordings and dare to imagine. Dare to be inspired by mandolinist Claudine Langille or Django on guitar. Something will come of it.

 

As far as Classical concertina transcriptions a la Pauline and Wim, yes very serious study of a pedagogy is most likely a good idea. By the way, Pauline...is she not the first graduate of a conservatory with an applied degree in concertina. Pretty astounding fact given my limited knowelege conservatory politics and impedimenta. Bravo! Then there is Danny (Ratface). His latest addition to the links page still has me thunderstruck...imagine Apres un reve on concertina. I'm not sure, but I don't think Danny has followed a set technique other than what he has evolved himself.

 

We English are in good shape (forgive me dear Celtic ancestors), a bit potty, but a diverse lot. Oh, I forgot to mention Sandy (another member not heard from in a long time). Listen to some of his recordings on the links page. Very interesting indeed. Ah, and Henrik and his demon mini Stagi cranking through TIM with abandon. I must stop for I'll end by listing all of the EC members on the links page.

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Of course, there are still many of us who haven't yet done any formal recording, who ought to get off our backsides and do it. I'll bet we have more than enough for an English International CD. (And why not a Duet International, as well?)

 

Well, as it happens, Alan and I have been recently talking about just such a project. After the Anglo International project, we said we'd take a break and see what happened.

The response, and the sales so far, have been superb, and exceeded our expectations.

Alan has got the bit between his teeth again, and we are about to embark on the period of research for these two projects.

We are not quite sure what form they will take, but it will take shape over the coming months.

Watch this space for further news.

Graham

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Looks like we draw conclusions based on our own experience. What a surprize!

Folks from some areas of England see more EC at Irish sessions.

Folks from other areas of England see just the opposite.

Folks from my area don't see any concertinas whatsoever, except perhabs at special venues, where we have to drive to and make reservations. I must say, I saw more ECs at NE Squeeze-in in 2000, about 6 to 1 proportion.

But I haven't heard outstanding EC playing and I have heard outstanding AC playing. Mostly Irish.

Yes, I agree, in certain communities conceritna is established, I was wrong. I is established as a folk instrument. EC is not folk though. It is classical iinstrument. As such it is not established, I think. Unless you show me volumes of music written for it, steady flow of performers, venues. I thought we were talking about EC.

I disagree with Chris about the subject of this discussion. It's not about who'se dad is bigger. It's about were are we standing. Nothing's wrong with that.

And I do think that this forum reflects the general proportion of Concertina music. This site is heavily Irish biased, yes. However, try to search on the Internet under the prompt:

Anglo Concertina mp3 - Irish

Englsh Concerina mp3 - 90% Irish and the rest classical

Amazon.com "concertina" - Irish

So I think the whole concertina thing is Irish biased.

Now about SAfrican concertina. I have 2 CDs from SA. Anglo-German 20 buttons with backup of electronic piano, electro-guitars, bass, drums. Strange, but hardly ancient.

All the pictures I found on the Internet show elder gentlemen with 20 button.

Perhabs Internet is not to be trusted.

My main point is though - concertina has very small presence in the Western World.

It's good.

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....with a name like English in Irish Music.. really :)).

C'mon, Bill. How is "Anglo" any better? ;)

 

Well, as you know Anglo is actually an Ancient Gaelic word meaning very small box that is squeezed to make music.... yeah that's it, thats the ticket... er... yeah, thats my story and I am sticking to it. ;)

 

--

Bill

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Well I am speaking from my own experience of a Yorkshireman living in the South of England who has attended Witney twice, several folk festivals (in the North and South) and sessions - including Concertinas Anonymous. The dominant concertina in this country is the English.

 

I certainly don't think it is a flop. Alistair Anderson is a virtuoso performer and runs a Folk Music degree course up in Gateshead so I think he is doing all he can to promote the English and Folk Music in general.

 

To say the EC is not a folk intrument is like saying a fiddle/violin is not a folk instrument or brass is not suitable for folk. Surely an intrument's suitability is defined by it's use? I saw a fantastic band last year where the lead melody instrument was a saxophone, counterpoint was provided by a viola and rythym was provided by an electric bass guitar. They were playing a mix of ECD and Irish Reels :D.

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Alan has got the bit between his teeth again, and we are about to embark on the period of research for these two projects.

We are not quite sure what form they will take, but it will take shape over the coming months.

Watch this space for further news.

Well, this gives me something else to say, and that is Yea [punches air] go for it!

 

Best news in a month of Mondays.

 

Chris

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You seem to be assuming that non-Irish -- or at least non-folk -- music is irrelevant to the anglo.
No no, not at all. I'm just assuming that most of AC players play Irish music and most of the people, who know about concertinas, attribute them to Irish. Other applications still seem to deal with clowns and monkeys.

Well, those are false assumptions, as has been established repeatedly here on C.net, not only in discussions of those particular topics, but also through the evidence of the various Topics and the contributions therein.

 

As it is now, it's not suited for serious music.

Ah, once againg there's that authoritarian declaration of some kind of division of musc into "serious" and -- presumably -- "trivial" or "frivolous". (True, I'm assuming you don't mean "serious" vs. "cheerful"? :D)

 

Too inconsistent. And it has nothing to do with personal taste. If one instrument randomly sounds like two or three, it's not good enough.

Actually, it has everything to do with personal taste. Your personal taste apparently finds certain things unacceptable. Not everyone shares that particular intolerance. I certainly don't, if you're desribing a universal attribute of vintage concertinas, as you seem to be claiming, because I find it to be far from universal.

 

Then again, maybe it has to do with personal experience. How many concertinas have you handled and played in your life? Maybe you just haven't been introduced to any really good ones? My own experience is that if an instrument "randomly" sounds like two or three, then it needs adjusting. I have known many instruments that to my perception are either uniform or smoothly varying. Those I play either fit that category, or I believe that they can be made to do so, and I'm "tolerating" them until I can afford to have them properly adjusted.

 

If the difference seems non-random -- e.g., a different tone quality in the higher range than in the lower, -- there could be various contributing factors.

... 1) The difference might be real, but deliberate. A cello in the upper range doesn't sound exactly like the same instrument in its lower range, but just "higher". Neither does a trumpet. Why should a concertina?

... 2) People differ considerably in their perception of sounds and sound quality, not just between persons, but also among different portions of a single person's audible range. I've mentioned elsewhere two friends of mine: The one finds music with a heavy bass uninteresting, because she almost can't hear the bass. The other plays a baritone concertina, because he can't hear at all the upper range of a standard treble.

 

Note that a consequence of the type 2 differences could be the appearance of type 1 differences. If the frequency response of the ears of the person tuning and voicing an instrument is different from yours, then what (s)he perceives as "uniform" might be perceived by you as "inconsistent". That's life; i.e., that's how living things work.

 

My "new" Lachenal sounds like 5, but I don't care. And it's somewhat flat at places. Can't care less. But I would expect top notch performance from my EC, even the cheap one. The music is different.

As for "the music" being "different", again that's your personal prejudice regarding what music should or shouldn't be played (or playable?) on each kind of instrument. I'm sure I'm not the only person who doesn't share your opinions in that regard: Any Morris musician who playes English, for starters; also those who selected the "Gigue" cut by John Kirkpatrick on Anglo International.

 

But you go further. You clearly say that your standards for an anglo are very different from your standards for an English. Here again, I differ with you, as I hold both to the same standard.

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>To say the EC is not a folk intrument is like saying a fiddle/violin is not a folk instrument >or brass is not suitable for folk.

 

Hmm, don't you understand what I mean? Most everything is suitable for moslty everything.

A violin is a classical instrument, with tons of music and performers, well established tradition of teaching, playing. Seems like EC is missing this aspect.

I have a hard time believing that expencive ECs were used by Irish working men to play dances on weekends. The very fact of being alive today EC owes to 20 button Anglos. "I" think EC is more of a classical, because It's capabilities are beyond the needs of folk music, it's chromaticism is under-used in folk music,.

That's why to play decent folk dance on the Anglo you need 1 month, but decent Chopin's Prelude on violin will take you 7 years.

I think you try to defend what's not being attacked.

Anybody besides Wim Wakker and me noticed the inconsistencies of the tone between octaves and rows in a concertina sound?

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....with a name like English in Irish Music.. really :)).
C'mon, Bill. How is "Anglo" any better? ;)
Well, as you know Anglo is actually an Ancient Gaelic word meaning very small box that is squeezed to make music.... yeah that's it, thats the ticket... er... yeah, thats my story and I am sticking to it. ;)

Really? What kind of glue to you use? :unsure:

Seems to me you could use a good shellacking. :D

(Not really, but after kath's thread, how could I resist a pun like that? ;))

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Folks from some areas of England see more EC at Irish sessions.

 

I think I may be the one who said I saw more EC than AC in my part of England. But I did not say that they were being played at Irish Sessions. Just to make it clear, the places I see EC predominate over AC are a mix of concerts, dances and sessions predominantly Northumbrian with a healthy admixture of Scottish, Scandinavian, French, Classical, Jazz, and yes Irish too. Its a completely unrepresentative personal observation, and is biased towards my choice of the occasions I enjoy.

 

You can make all the sweeping and unprovable sweeping statements you like, but at least treat the rest of us with enough courtesy to quote us correctly.

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Folks from some areas of England see more EC at Irish sessions.
I think I may be the one who said I saw more EC than AC in my part of England. But I did not say that they were being played at Irish Sessions.

 

...at least treat the rest of us with enough courtesy to quote us correctly.

Theo, I think Michael (m3838) may have been referring to Howard Jones' post (see below), but it's hard to tell, because he doesn't use the built-in quoting mechanism nor otherwise identify who he's quoting.

In more than 30 years of playing in both Irish and English music sessions (in England) I can only recall ever seeing one Irish-style anglo player - that was in a session at Whitby Festival many years ago. None of the Anglo players I know play Irish music on it (and I don't myself, preferring whistle or melodeon for that), whereas most of the EC players I know do. In all the Irish sessions I go to, if there are concertinas present they are invariably EC.
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Oh no, not anglo vs english again!

 

It has always been my experience that people are good musicians in spite of their instrument, not because of it.

 

I can think of any number of really fine musicians who play really awful (in my humble opinion) instruments. Piano accordians! Well Karen Tweed and Phil Cunningham aren't bad. Folk oboe? Oh yes, Sue Harris. At any irish session you get such delightful irish instruments as tenor banjo, bouzouki and mandolin. Actually they seem to fit just fine.

 

Play what you want on what you can. If you're good enough no one will complain, and real musicians will beat a path to your door!

 

Chris

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Folks from some areas of England see more EC at Irish sessions.
I think I may be the one who said I saw more EC than AC in my part of England. But I did not say that they were being played at Irish Sessions.

 

...at least treat the rest of us with enough courtesy to quote us correctly.

Theo, I think Michael (m3838) may have been referring to Howard Jones' post (see below), but it's hard to tell, because he doesn't use the built-in quoting mechanism nor otherwise identify who he's quoting.

In more than 30 years of playing in both Irish and English music sessions (in England) I can only recall ever seeing one Irish-style anglo player - that was in a session at Whitby Festival many years ago. None of the Anglo players I know play Irish music on it (and I don't myself, preferring whistle or melodeon for that), whereas most of the EC players I know do. In all the Irish sessions I go to, if there are concertinas present they are invariably EC.

 

You could well be right Jim, but he is still metamorphing the quote into one exclusivly about Irish music, which is not what Howard was saying either.

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To Theo:

 

hjcjones wrote:

In more than 30 years of playing in both Irish and English

music sessions (in England) I can only recall ever seeing one Irish-style anglo player

 

JimLucas wrote:

The results of observation depend on where you look. Got to a Noel Hill school, and you'll find (surprise?) almost all anglos.

 

Alan Day wrote:

I have been sending out about three Anglo Tutors a week now for about two years

 

bill_mchale wrote:

I do recommend people take up Ango Concertina if they are interested in Irish Music, but only because there is very little support for those who play it on the English

 

 

Me:

So to me it looked that Anglo vs. English experience differ depending on the perspective, location, preference.

 

Now, let's look at the Internet:

John Williams on Irish button accordion and Irish concertina

 

Noel Hill MP3 Downloads - Noel Hill Music Downloads - Noel Hill ...

 

Iarla Ó Lionáird MP3 Downloads - MP3.com offers legal Iarla Ó Lionáird music ... The concertina in Irish music is associated with the county of Clare.

 

Peter Laban and Kitty Hayes

 

Dr. Gearóid Ó hAllmhuráin, MBA, Ph.D.

 

The Nervous Man

Traditional Irish Music on concertina

 

A Touch of Clare by Kitty Heys

 

Mary MacNamara:

 

The Green House Grey Larsen: Irish flute, tin whistle, anglo concertina,

 

Jason O'Rourke: C/G and Bb/F Jeffries Concertinas;

 

County Meath: an O'Carolan Sojourn

 

The Angel Band

 

Etc. All are taken within minutes. All represent Anglo in Irish music.

 

Search of "English Concertina mp3" turned the whole bunch of all kinds of music, where Irish is not predominant.

So my assumption is that English is used for wider variety of music, and Anglo predominantly for Irish. If this assumption is "sweeping generalization", it reflects one of most people looking it up on the Net.

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But I haven't heard outstanding EC playing and I have heard outstanding AC playing. Mostly Irish.

You haven't heard Alistair Anderson? You haven't heard Simon Thoumire? You haven't heard Robert Habron? Or Pietro Valente? Or Danny Chapman (Ratface)? (You can hear Danny at Henk's Tune Links page.) Then you are deprived, but whose fault is that?

 

I is established as a folk instrument. EC is not folk though.

It most certainly is, though it's not limited to "folk" (however you define that).

 

It is classical iinstrument. As such it is not established, I think.

I certainly think it has potential for classical music -- I love playing Bach and Telemann, among others, on the EC, -- but if it is not "established" as such, then it is not such, however much you may think it should be.

 

I thought we were talking about EC.

I have been, the English concertina as it exists and as it is and has been played. But I'm increasingly getting the impression that you're describing some personal fantasy that doesn't exist in the world I inhabit, an instrument that's considered to be "classical", though it's not used in classical music.

 

And I do think that this forum reflects the general proportion of Concertina music.

My personal experience tells me otherwise. By the way, how many concertina players do you know personally, that you have spoken to in person and can remember the gist of at least one conversation? Or those that you have seen perform, whether or not you spoke with them?

 

This site is heavily Irish biased, yes. However, try to search on the Internet under the prompt:

Anglo Concertina mp3 - Irish

Englsh Concerina mp3 - 90% Irish and the rest classical

Amazon.com "concertina" - Irish

I think I should let you in on a "secret". There's more to the world than the internet. And there are actually concertina players who haven't recorded MP3's! (Sarcasm intended.)

 

So I think the whole concertina thing is Irish biased.

No. Your search is "Irish biased".

 

Ah, but after writing the above, I followed your instruction to "try to search on the Internet under the prompt: Anglo Concertina mp3". Actually my Google search was for the combination "anglo concertina" and "mp3". Out of a reported 1360 hits, these are the first seventeen of them:

... First two: Suttner concertinas web site, with a number of Irish MP3's.

... Next two: Reviews of Jason O'Rourke and Frank Edgley on the C.net music page, which includes many other recordings, including non-Irish and non-anglo.

... Next one: "Anglo Concertina Sheet Music - Info", which really just claims to be able to run searches.

... Next one: "Parallel Strands", a folk band that uses anglo. Not Irish.

... Next one: Our own Alan Day. Not Irish.

... Next two: "Music Moz" - just a long list of links, including Concertina.net

... Next one: CD Baby: JODY KRUSKAL: Naked Concertina - Not Irish.

... Next one: CD Baby: GREY LARSEN & PADDY LEAGUE: The Green House - Hey, it's Irish!

... Next two: Sound files of a Geuns-Wakker anglo on the Concertina Connection web site - one Irish, one Northumbrian (English)

... Next two: "Artist Direct" web site - not direct to MP3's, though the one description included John Kirkpatrick's name. He's English

... Next one: "Three Pressed Men" - English

... Next one: FARNE web site: English!

 

So didn't find the Irish bias you report. In fact, quite the opposite!

 

Perhabs Internet is not to be trusted.

Brilliant! Hold onto that thought! :D The internet certainly isn't infallible. And your results will depend on your search criteria.

 

My main point is though - concertina has very small presence in the Western World. It's good.

Glad you think so. Many good things have very small presence, even -- or perhaps especially -- many excellent and wonderful things. I happen to think the various concertinas are among them.

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To Jim:

Here is the excerpt from Wim Wakker's intervew:

 

"From a technical point of view, concertinas have not developed much since the early 20th century. If you compare the concertina with other members of the free reed family (eg. accordion, bayan etc.) they are, with respect to some aspects, quite primitive.... Many concertinas have certain parts of their range that stand out/ don't blend in. They are sometimes brighter or louder than neighbouring notes. On most other musical instruments, this would not be acceptable. Even a Chinese piano has a better balance than many concertinas."

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Get the best of both worlds - play both!!!!!!!

 

After playing Anglo for decades, I got fed up of trying A and Bb on a C/G so picked up English. I have never looked back - I found it surprisingly easy to learn.

I do play different traditions on each and I think that some people can succesfully imitate the Anglo sound on an English (as our Swiss ambassador will demonstrate), it is not the same.

Generally speaking, from what I hear in sessions, Irish on English concertina is not as succesful (apart from speed).

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