Beginner question re harmonic 'English-style' playing

[Jane_in_UK]

Hi all,

Having just switched to playing in the English style (after 7 months of playing in the Irish style) I have a novice's question regarding learning to play with both hands. .

 

When approaching new tunes is it advisable to tackle the task full on by trying right from the start to learn both the melody and accompaniment at the same time, or is it advisable for a beginner to learn the melody first until one can play it fluently, before adding the left hand accompaniment?

 

I've been attempting to apply the first approach (both hands right from the beginning) and I'm making very slow progress - but if that's the best approach I'm prepared to stick with it. After switching from Irish style mainly because I wanted to play harmonically, it feels like 'cheating' to learn just the melody at first, parking the accompaniment until I have the melody nailed. But am I making life harder for myself than it needs to be by trying to learn both parts at the same time? Are there clear benefits to learning both parts simultaneously?

 

 

 

 

[gcoover]

Hi Jane,

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of crafting harmonies and arrangements!

 

I would strongly recommend working on both hands at the same time. Due to the alternate notes available on the Anglo (or lack thereof in some instances), you'll need both hands to sort out where a particular melody note needs to be to go along with the harmony you want. 

 

Having said that, it's always good to learn basic chord shapes in the left hand (in both directions). Simple patterns can get you going at first, and then you can try other notes later.

 

Be adventurous in your playing! I'm a firm believer in "no wrong notes, only notes you like and notes you don't like". It's usually through experimentation (and "happy accidents") that you often discover some really wonderful harmonies and combinations of notes.

Gary

[RAc]

Hi Jane, 

 

there is no one size fits all "best" approach for anything, I am afraid...

 

I am a duet player where the "harmonic" style of playing is the default, so I perfectly understand the knots your brain tie into when you tackle both hand playing (even tough, as a guitarist for 30+ years, I was fluent in "simultaneous THREE hand voicing" - RH thumb, RH fingers and LH).

 

My personal approach, coming from the guitar, was to learn the LH and RH sort of independently of each other. On the LH, it is mostly chord shapes to memorize. It is perfectly fine in some contexts to play LH only, and it is a perfectly legal cheat to practice your LH only work when, say, you haven't fully memorized a tune yet but can identify the chord changes below it. That makes you the equivalent of a guitar chord strummer who rarely hurts (you get bonus points when you can perfection this technique to support different grooves).

 

I found that converging this "left hand persona" with the RH melody work worked for me. What this means in practice is that at a certain point, the left hand uhm-pa patterns over a given chord have become so automatic and autonomous that they sort of fall under the melody by itself. In the process of learning how to bicycle, you will stll fall back into playing one hand only when your brain is in danger of blowing a fuse (when, say, what is asked for is fast playing), but that is fine.

 

One side effect of this approach is that you can become what I call involuntarily improvisational. That means that as long as you keep the harmony going by itself, you can fill in gaps in the RH if you lose the intricacies of the melody by playing occassional melody notes fitting the chord. Some will now raise their eyebrows and consider that a cheap cheat, but, like Gary, I am not dogmatic and a pragmatic, so as long as you don't implode a piece that way, everything goes (I would shy away from experimenting with this in very small groups, but as long as there are enough in a session or band to make up for your wild excursions, it is generally fine).

 

But again, this is just my personal experience. Whether it works for your personal lever to music is impossible to judge. In any case, you are looking at some hard and disciplined work, but that does not mean it can't be fun and satisfying. 

 

[Steve Schulteis]

Are we talking about creating arrangements or learning existing arrangements?

 

Creating arrangements: On Anglo, it's usually essential to figure out both hands together since they have to agree on the bellows direction. This does seem overwhelming at first, but like most things, it gets easier the more you do it.

 

Learning existing arrangements: Early on I think it can help to analyze each hand by itself. I still recommend putting them together pretty quickly. Eventually it becomes natural to start with everything together and only isolate tricky bits here and there.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

Although your query asks about English system..

It is essential that both hands come into play, also on Anglo; on most tunes it is unavoidable, due to the way the notes are arranged on them.. with lower notes on left side, and riding up to higher notes on right side of keyboard. I suppose a bit like piano in a way, your left fingers tend to use the low notes, whilst you can also make a melody to the treble end on your right hand.

It is a continuation of a keyboard divided into two halves, for convenience of the hands.

Consider them part of a team, that needs one side sometimes to support the ( whole ) performer, in rendition of music.

Sometimes, inbetween the academic study, it's good to relax and explore instrument capabilities, more freely by improvising, seeing what works, and finding out by practice.🌝

Whichever system you use.

Edited March 23 by SIMON GABRIELOW

[Jane_in_UK]

12 minutes ago, SIMON GABRIELOW said:

Although your query asks about English system..

It is essential that both hands come into play, also on Anglo; on most tunes it is unavoidable, due to the way the notes are arranged on them.. with lower notes on left side, and riding up to higher notes on right side of keyboard. I suppose a bit like piano in a way, your left fingers tend to use the low notes, whilst you can also make a melody to the treble end on your right hand.

It is a continuation of a keyboard divided into two halves, for convenience of the hands.

Consider them part of a team, that needs one side sometimes to support the ( whole ) performer, in rendition of music.

Sometimes, inbetween the academic study, it's good to relax and explore instrument capabilities, more freely by improvising, seeing what works, and finding out by practice.🌝

Whichever system you use.

Sorry, I was unclear. I play a 30 button C/G anglo but in the English (harmonic) style rather than the Irish (melody) style. In comparison to the melody-focused style of ITM, playing in the English style is (at least for me) much, much more challenging - but also much, much more rewarding. 

[Jane_in_UK]

44 minutes ago, Steve Schulteis said:

Are we talking about creating arrangements or learning existing arrangements?

 

Creating arrangements: On Anglo, it's usually essential to figure out both hands together since they have to agree on the bellows direction. This does seem overwhelming at first, but like most things, it gets easier the more you do it.

 

Learning existing arrangements: Early on I think it can help to analyze each hand by itself. I still recommend putting them together pretty quickly. Eventually it becomes natural to start with everything together and only isolate tricky bits here and there.

 

For now I'm focused on learning existing arrangements - though I am also having fun by adding left hand chords and bass notes as I compose simple melodies on the right hand (mainly just in C and G major for now). Beethoven I ain't, but I'm enjoying myself immensely. 

Edited March 23 by Jane_in_UK

[Ryan Galamb]

If you do wanna start with just melody, I'd recommend finding/figuring out some chords to go with the song. Then base your fingerings around which direction the bellows would need to go for those chords.

 

You'll still need to rework your fingerings some when you add in the chords/harmony, but it'll be less dramatic/painful.

 

I typically only use this approach for "melody only" when I'm learning new tunes with no intention of doing harmony/chords (because I often change my mind later.) When I set out to do a full arrangement, I usually try to choreograph melody/harmony together from the start.

 

And if you're working from an existing arrangement (assuming it has tablature), you can do whatever works. The arranger has already worked out all the bellows trickiness, so you (probably) won't have to rework much when you add the other parts in.

[wunks]

All The above but also learning to play the melody on the left hand and crossing from one hand to the other in either direction.  A harmony line above the melody can sound lovely.

[Anglo-Irishman]

Hi, Jane,

As far as Crane Duets are concerned, I agree with RAc. For me, the Crane, when I took it up, was like a 5-string banjo and a mandolin combined: chord shapes on the left hand, melody lines on the right hand. 

 

To a certain extent, this can be true of the Anglo for certain tunes. As Gary pointed out, you can use chord shapes in the LH, as guitarists and banjoists do, and just practise changing from one to the other while humming the melody. Or you can just try picking out the melody on the RH, and practising until you get it down smooth.

 

Then you can put both hands together ...

 

Sometimes! Just the other day, I was trying out a harmonised arrangement of a tune I hadn't yet played on the Anglo. The chord sequence was nice and easy to play, and the melody was quite straightforward along the C-row . BUT when I put them together, I kept running into places where the LH wanted to draw, but the RH wanted to press the bellows, or vice versa. So I had to work out whether I could play the same chord in a different bellows direction, or whether I would have to take the melody onto a different button row at that point. 

So my recommendation would be to try a harmonised arrangement with both hands together for a start. Take it slowly!When you've ascertained that there are no "press/draw conflicts" between the hands, you can then practise the melody and harmony separately.

Cheers,

John 

[Jane_in_UK]

Whew, I need to lie down in a darkened room! This feels like learning to unicycle on a tightrope while spinning plates and reciting Shakespeare! I'll never get the hang of it! A fence post has greater coordination skills than I have!  

[hjcjones]

To reiterate , if you start with just the melody you'll almost certainly have to change how you play it once you add chords. Chords dictate the direction of the bellows, and the melody must follow. Most notes can be found in both directions but the fingering patterns are completely different, and you'll need to use all the rows.

 

To add a further dimension, air management is also a consideration. For example, if you're playing a chord of C, which is available only on the push, followed by a G chord, you may need to play the G chord on the pull to avoid running out of air.

 

There's a lot to think about, but it's easier than it looks when written down. Take time to explore the instrument. Find the main chords in both directions. Explore the main scales in both directions, you'll find that many common phrases can be played in several different ways. The anglopiano Web tool may help with this.

 

As you've found, this is a very fulfilling way to play. Stick with it.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

Yes keep at it....and one day soon you will be a skilled concertina player, finding you will develop love and delight in your instrument . And what I term Concertina-itous enthusiasm😊

[gcoover]

If I may make a shameless plug... Easy Anglo 1-2-3, or Anglo Concertina in the Harmonic Style, should be able to get you up and running in no time. Also, Cohen Braithwaite-Kilcoyne's book Anglo Concertina from Beginner to Master. I think there might still be a few free pages posted somewhere here on CNET. A lot of the tunes are also on YouTube.

 

Are you looking to play any particular styles of music? Morris tunes are good starting points, pop songs will take a lot more finesse. Along with simple tunes like "Oh Susanna", I'll also be teaching the Susanna Hoffs song "Eternal Flame" at the Old Pal Concertina thing next weekend. (Big hairsprayed hair is optional).

 

Once you get past the initial sorting out, you will be able to play some amazing stuff on the Anglo. Stay after it until your subconscious takes care of the basics, and then have fun exploring!

 

Gary

Edited March 23 by gcoover

[Jane_in_UK]

2 hours ago, gcoover said:

If I may make a shameless plug... Easy Anglo 1-2-3, or Anglo Concertina in the Harmonic Style, should be able to get you up and running in no time. Also, Cohen Braithwaite-Kilcoyne's book Anglo Concertina from Beginner to Master. I think there might still be a few free pages posted somewhere here on CNET. A lot of the tunes are also on YouTube.

 

Are you looking to play any particular styles of music? Morris tunes are good starting points, pop songs will take a lot more finesse. Along with simple tunes like "Oh Susanna", I'll also be teaching the Susanna Hoffs song "Eternal Flame" at the Old Pal Concertina thing next weekend. (Big hairsprayed hair is optional).

 

Once you get past the initial sorting out, you will be able to play some amazing stuff on the Anglo. Stay after it until your subconscious takes care of the basics, and then have fun exploring!

 

Gary

I’ve just bought Anglo Concertina in the Harmonic Style (and the Cohen Braithwaite-Kilcoyne one, and the Bertram Levy one) so I have no excuse not to learn! I’ve used your book to learn Oh Susanna in octaves and Shepherd’s Hey with chords and I’ve also got your Pirates book so I’m learning a couple of sea shanties too. I’m enjoying myself immensely but I can’t pretend I’m finding it easy!
I’m teaching myself to sight read music at the same time as learning concertina as I want to play old time music and most of those tunes seem to be written for fiddle, so I figure if I can read the fiddle music I’ll have a ton of tunes to choose from and I can cherrypick the ones I can play on my C/G Anglo without needing to transpose then to a different key. 
 

Most days I have a confidence wobble and think I’ve bitten off more than I can chew and wonder if I should’ve just stuck with learning in the Irish style, but I’m determined to stick with harmonic playing as it’s so much more interesting. I just need to plug away at it and be patient with my slow progress. 

Edited March 23 by Jane_in_UK

[Dan Worrall]

When approaching new tunes is it advisable to tackle the task full on by trying right from the start to learn both the melody and accompaniment at the same time, or is it advisable for a beginner to learn the melody first until one can play it fluently, before adding the left hand accompaniment?

 

Ok, so I'll admit to being a contrarian on this. I'll grant you that learning the two hands separately so you can later put brilliant chords on the left can usually make beautiful results, and it is the clear favorite technique among most players, it would seem, today. But the earliest recorded practitioner in the "English harmonic" style on the Anglo, William Kimber, played much more simply with much, much less memory work - and yet his playing inspired a whole generation of learners 80 or so years ago.

 

Basically, you can approach his style in the beginning by playing the melody in octaves, usually in the key of C. Use both rows to play the melody (C and G rows only; he didn't use the top row, which cuts out tons of memory work). Play the do re mi fa of the scale on the C row, and so la ti do on the G. Make sure your left hand and right hand more or less follow each other across the keyboard. Once you can play the melody in octaves, then drop out all upbeat notes on the left hand side, playing the lower octave notes (left hand) only on the downbeats. This gives you the percussion.

 

Then add one button above each remaining left hand note, giving you third interval chords. You have the beginnings of a punchy, harmonic rhythm.

 

That, magically, is maybe 70% of his playing. There are about 5 or 6 simple rules that get you to about 90% of which buttons he pushes. The rest is to just listen and listen to get his rhythm and crispness.

 

Like Gary, I'll shamelessly self promote: all this is spelled out in some detail, with sound files and button tab, in my bio and tutor of Kimber, which Gary sells.

 

I'm a huge fan of English players like Kirkpatrick, Watcham, Cohen and the like - gorgeous stuff. I prefer Kimber's style for my own playing because it, too, is gorgeous (Kimber's playing, not my copying of him) and the amount of effort to get there is hugely less challenging for my noggin. I'm doing good to remember where I put my car keys, let alone how to play a full fisted D  minor or an F major chord on the pull and then the push, in rapid succession. 

 

Like Gary, I'll be at the concertina weekend at Old Pal in East Texas in a few days. He and I can talk about these weighty topics for hours......but mercifully won't until after the workshops are concluded, or over barbecue.

Edited March 24 by Dan Worrall

[hjcjones]

7 hours ago, Dan Worrall said:

I'll grant you that learning the two hands separately so you can later put brilliant chords on the left can usually make beautiful results, and it is the clear favorite technique among most players, it would seem, today.

 

Really? Most players I know would disagree. As has already been pointed out, the brilliant chords on the left will usually dictate the bellows direction, so if you have already learned the right hand independently you are likely to have to find alternative fingerings for the appropriate bellows when you add the chords. Most players in my experience find it better to work out the melody and accompaniment together.

 

Neither should it be necessary to change between the same chord on push and pull in quick succession. The left hand  also establishes the rythym, and you should try to avoid disrupting that by changing bellows direction at an inappropriate point in the music simply to find a melody note. Instead aim to play an entire phrase of music without changing direction, and use alternative fingerings for the melody - most notes can be found in both directions. A new phrase will usually require a new chord, and at that point you can change direction without disturbing the rythym. If you are going to add a change of direction during a phrase, do it to add musical emphasis rather than because it is forced on you by the mechanics of the instrument.

 

However I do agree that Kimber's style is also gorgeous!

[Steve Schulteis]

10 minutes ago, hjcjones said:

Neither should it be necessary to change between the same chord on push and pull in quick succession. The left hand  also establishes the rythym, and you should try to avoid disrupting that by changing bellows direction at an inappropriate point in the music simply to find a melody note. Instead aim to play an entire phrase of music without changing direction, and use alternative fingerings for the melody - most notes can be found in both directions. A new phrase will usually require a new chord, and at that point you can change direction without disturbing the rythym. If you are going to add a change of direction during a phrase, do it to add musical emphasis rather than because it is forced on you by the mechanics of the instrument.

 

I'm going to (sort of) disagree with this, even though it's how I make a lot of my own arrangements. For certain styles it is possible to change bellows direction on every single note without disrupting the rhythm on the left hand or in general. For example, oom-pah accompaniment often allows this.