Complete beginner: Navigating the limits of a 46-key Hayden (and the upgrade dilemma)

[Liu]

Hello everyone,

I’m writing to you from China as a complete beginner who had never touched a concertina before recently. After comparing the Anglo, English, and various Duet systems, the Hayden Duet layout seemed the most logical and approachable to me.

To give you an idea of how incredibly niche this instrument is in my country: my current concertina—a used 46-key Stagi Hayden Duet—is actually the only Hayden I have ever seen for sale domestically. Funnily enough, its previous owner (another Chinese player) originally bought it from a UK member right here on this forum before I eventually purchased it on a local second-hand platform!

As I’ve started exploring the instrument, I’ve run into a bit of a wall. Looking closely at the layout map and applying it to actual playing, it’s clear that this 46-key layout isn't fully chromatic across the board. When a melody introduces accidentals, the fingerings can suddenly become very awkward. Worse still, the required accidental is sometimes simply missing entirely. I initially thought transposing the piece to a more "Hayden-friendly" key would be the magic fix, but that doesn't solve the issue if the melody inherently relies on those accidentals or features complex modulations.

This naturally led me to look into higher-button models, but the market for larger Haydens seems quite daunting. From my research:

• The 52-key R. Morse & Co. Beaumont is unfortunately discontinued.

• The 65-key Wakkers and 60+ key Holdens are undoubtedly masterpieces, but they are incredibly expensive and way out of my current budget. Moreover, I've read they have massive waitlists or have even stopped taking new orders entirely.

My questions for the veteran Hayden players here are:

1. How do you practically deal with missing accidentals on smaller layouts like the 46-key? Do you substitute notes, simplify the melody, drop the octave, or simply avoid certain repertoire?

2. What is your general philosophy regarding this limitation? Do you just accept it as part of the 46-key's character, or is this exactly why players are forced to seek out larger models?

3. Given the current market (and my budget constraints), are there any other recommendations or alternatives for someone who might eventually want a larger Hayden? Any insights, tips, or personal experiences would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for helping out a beginner!

 

Edited March 17 by Liu

[David Barnert]

You can do a great deal with a 46-key Hayden. I’ve been playing one for about 40 years. As your graphic, above, makes clear, it is fully chromatic except for the bottom three notes.

 

Sometimes you have to use the D# as an Eb. and sometimes you have to use the left hand to play a melody note that doesn’t appear on the right. But as long as you avoid keys with too many flats, with a little finesse you can make almost anything work. Here’s a waltz in G minor (2 flats) that uses much of what i just described:

 

 

[Liu]

38 minutes ago, David Barnert said:

You can do a great deal with a 46-key Hayden. I’ve been playing one for about 40 years. As your graphic, above, makes clear, it is fully chromatic except for the bottom three notes.

 

Sometimes you have to use the D# as an Eb. and sometimes you have to use the left hand to play a melody note that doesn’t appear on the right. But as long as you avoid keys with too many flats, with a little finesse you can make almost anything work. Here’s a waltz in G minor (2 flats) that uses much of what i just described:

 

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply and for sharing your video. Your 40 years of experience on the Hayden is truly admirable.

I had actually thought about using the left hand to fill in the missing right-hand melody notes, but it made me feel a bit "inelegant." It felt like it was breaking the neat, logical fingering shapes and transposing patterns that the Hayden system prides itself on. However, compared to being able to actually play the pieces I love, I realize that's a very small price to pay. Also, using enharmonic equivalents like D# for Eb is definitely a practical habit I need to develop.

Watching you play that G minor waltz so beautifully and smoothly was a real eye-opener. Seeing it in action proves that with the right handling, this instrument has immense potential.

Most importantly, your reply gave me the exact confidence I needed right now. I truly love this instrument, and seeing you make such wonderful music with it makes me want to stop dwelling on the number of buttons. Instead, I just want to focus on practicing and making music with the concertina I currently have.

Thanks again!

[Shuenhoy]

I noticed that Hayden was listed on Xianyu for several months - hope you enjoy your new instrument.

 

You may try to contact Edward Jay for upgrade potentially. I remember someone mentioned that he has continued making concertinas recently.
http://www.jayconcertinas.co.uk/paragraphsview.aspx?siteid=61&headerid=107&siteHeader=Hayden

[Liu]

1 hour ago, Shuenhoy said:

I noticed that Hayden was listed on Xianyu for several months - hope you enjoy your new instrument.

 

You may try to contact Edward Jay for upgrade potentially. I remember someone mentioned that he has continued making concertinas recently.
http://www.jayconcertinas.co.uk/paragraphsview.aspx?siteid=61&headerid=107&siteHeader=Hayden

To be honest, I initially wanted to buy a brand-new concertina. However, once I realized the reality of the instrument's market here in China—especially just how incredibly rare Haydens are—I immediately checked the condition of that used one and bought it without hesitation.

Also, thank you for the information about JAY Concertinas. The instruments he makes look very unique and are definitely worth looking into further.

[Shuenhoy]

34 minutes ago, Liu said:

To be honest, I initially wanted to buy a brand-new concertina. However, once I realized the reality of the instrument's market here in China—especially just how incredibly rare Haydens are—I immediately checked the condition of that used one and bought it without hesitation.

Also, thank you for the information about JAY Concertinas. The instruments he makes look very unique and are definitely worth looking into further.

I completely understand. I actually considered buying that one when I found it. However, I knew it wouldn't satisfy me, and I'm primarily focused on the Anglo, and more interested in the Crane if I want a duet, rather than the Hayden. I eventually decided that I'd only buy it if it was still unsold by July, and merely for collection purposes. I'm so glad it went to an owner who will actually play it and get proper use out of it!

As for Jay Concertinas, I believe one of the biggest advantages is that his instruments are fully customizable, the shape, button layout, overall aesthetics, etc., due to the flexibility of 3D printing. Personally, I think the 74 button Hayden on his website is too big. 

[Richard Mellish]

5 hours ago, Liu said:

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply and for sharing your video. Your 40 years of experience on the Hayden is truly admirable.

I had actually thought about using the left hand to fill in the missing right-hand melody notes, but it made me feel a bit "inelegant." It felt like it was breaking the neat, logical fingering shapes and transposing patterns that the Hayden system prides itself on. However, compared to being able to actually play the pieces I love, I realize that's a very small price to pay. Also, using enharmonic equivalents like D# for Eb is definitely a practical habit I need to develop.

Watching you play that G minor waltz so beautifully and smoothly was a real eye-opener. Seeing it in action proves that with the right handling, this instrument has immense potential.

Most importantly, your reply gave me the exact confidence I needed right now. I truly love this instrument, and seeing you make such wonderful music with it makes me want to stop dwelling on the number of buttons. Instead, I just want to focus on practicing and making music with the concertina I currently have.

Thanks again!

I have been playing Anglo for more than 50 years and I very often need to use the left-hand end for some notes of a tune. I agree it is inelegant but it works. Using (for example) D# for Eb breaks the regularity of fingering on a Hayden, but a concertina covering the same range but with all the sharps and flats on separate buttons would be a bit heavier and cost a bit more money.

[wunks]

I play The Jeffries duet and have not until now looked at the Hayden layout.  What stands out to me is the proximity of the F# and G# buttons.  I've solved a similar problem on the JD by combining the two for a bisonoric button opening up a free button.  You could  use the extra button as an Eb or another bisonoric pair such as low G/A.  

[David Barnert]

9 minutes ago, wunks said:

I play The Jeffries duet and have not until now looked at the Hayden layout.  What stands out to me is the proximity of the F# and G# buttons.  I've solved a similar problem on the JD by combining the two for a bisonoric button opening up a free button.  You could  use the extra button as an Eb or another bisonoric pair such as low G/A.  

 

Look again at the keyboard diagram, Erik. All the flats are at the left end of the rows, all the sharps at the right. Any diatonic key falls under the fingers on buttons no wider than four columns. Combining the F#/G# puts the free button already close to the D# on the right. What’s wanted is an Eb on the left, beside the F.

[wunks]

Yah.  I'll admit to meddling from a platform of ignorance.  Still, I used the extra button for Bb which would free up that button for the Eb on Hayden.

[Dimble]

11 hours ago, Liu said:

My questions for the veteran Hayden players here are:

1. How do you practically deal with missing accidentals on smaller layouts like the 46-key? Do you substitute notes, simplify the melody, drop the octave, or simply avoid certain repertoire?

2. What is your general philosophy regarding this limitation? Do you just accept it as part of the 46-key's character, or is this exactly why players are forced to seek out larger models?

3. Given the current market (and my budget constraints), are there any other recommendations or alternatives for someone who might eventually want a larger Hayden? Any insights, tips, or personal experiences would be greatly appreciated.

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of Hayden Liu!

 

First your questions:
1. I deal with missing accidentals by using enharmonic buttons extensively. However, this approach has some limitations. For jazz, I use a concertina with more buttons,  a Jay Hayden, which has flats, because of these limitations.

 

2. With enough practice, using enharmonic keys isn't a great problem, but I have two issues with using enharmonic keys very often. The first issue is that the distance between keys is bigger and playing feels less efficient and less intuitive with big spans between buttons.  The second issue is that I miss my favorite advantage of the Hayden; the similarity between the spacial interval between buttons and the auditory interval between notes. This similarity helps my playing and ear training develop together. The ear training happens less when I have big enharmonic leaps to make. 

 

Ideally I would have two 42 or 46 key instruments. One would have Bb, Eb, Ab, and Db, along with C# and F#. My thought is that when playing with horns (e.g. jazz), you only need flats with an occasional sharps.  The other instrument would have mostly sharps, much like the layout you showed.  When playing with strings, you only need sharps with the odd Bb. For fully chromatic music with lots of accidentals, I think you just have to deal with many buttons or deal with enharmonic buttons. 

 

3. The only short term play for a big Hayden seems to be Jay concertinas. We might also be able to get Harry Geuns https://bandoneon-maker.com/ to make another run of his fine instruments if demand were high enough to make a batch of them. Last I checked, he had issues sourcing reeds at an affordable price, at least for a one-off build.

 

Personally, I ended up with a Striso electronic button board, a Concertina Connection Peacock, and a Jay. The first styles of music that I wanted to play were New Orleans hot jazz and Irish traditional music, and I wanted to play with friends. 

 

For trad Irish music, only the Peacock responds fast enough to keep up, at least under my fingers. I suspect that the Jay will be more responsive once it is played it a bit more, but it currently doesn't respond as fast as the Peacock. I also switch between them less than I might because the spacing between notes is different for the Peacock vs the Jay Hayden. 

[Liu]

2 hours ago, Dimble said:

Welcome to the wonderful world of Hayden Liu!

 

First your questions:
1. I deal with missing accidentals by using enharmonic buttons extensively. However, this approach has some limitations. For jazz, I use a concertina with more buttons,  a Jay Hayden, which has flats, because of these limitations.

 

2. With enough practice, using enharmonic keys isn't a great problem, but I have two issues with using enharmonic keys very often. The first issue is that the distance between keys is bigger and playing feels less efficient and less intuitive with big spans between buttons.  The second issue is that I miss my favorite advantage of the Hayden; the similarity between the spacial interval between buttons and the auditory interval between notes. This similarity helps my playing and ear training develop together. The ear training happens less when I have big enharmonic leaps to make. 

 

Ideally I would have two 42 or 46 key instruments. One would have Bb, Eb, Ab, and Db, along with C# and F#. My thought is that when playing with horns (e.g. jazz), you only need flats with an occasional sharps.  The other instrument would have mostly sharps, much like the layout you showed.  When playing with strings, you only need sharps with the odd Bb. For fully chromatic music with lots of accidentals, I think you just have to deal with many buttons or deal with enharmonic buttons. 

 

3. The only short term play for a big Hayden seems to be Jay concertinas. We might also be able to get Harry Geuns https://bandoneon-maker.com/ to make another run of his fine instruments if demand were high enough to make a batch of them. Last I checked, he had issues sourcing reeds at an affordable price, at least for a one-off build.

 

Personally, I ended up with a Striso electronic button board, a Concertina Connection Peacock, and a Jay. The first styles of music that I wanted to play were New Orleans hot jazz and Irish traditional music, and I wanted to play with friends. 

 

For trad Irish music, only the Peacock responds fast enough to keep up, at least under my fingers. I suspect that the Jay will be more responsive once it is played it a bit more, but it currently doesn't respond as fast as the Peacock. I also switch between them less than I might because the spacing between notes is different for the Peacock vs the Jay Hayden. 

Thank you, your answer was very helpful.

 

I recently started practicing some pure melody pieces. Although the fingering gets a bit awkward when accidentals appear, it's quite manageable once I figure out the patterns. I have no prior experience learning or playing accordion-family instruments—my only background is with the acoustic guitar. Compared to accordions with their overwhelming specifications, or the bisonoric Anglo concertina, the unisonoric and intuitively laid-out Hayden Duet gives me a sense of reassurance. I feel like I might be able to figure it out through trial and error and gradually learn to play some of my favorite music, even without a teacher.

 

I also own an English concertina. It's actually quite nice if used solely for melodies since it is fully chromatic. However, mine is a cheap Chinese-made model (which was just the easiest for me to acquire at the time). The response is rather sluggish, and the air tightness isn't great. Even though I've seen many people on forums say Stagi's quality is mediocre, after getting my hands on my Stagi, I feel its overall build and tactile feel far exceed my cheap English concertina. On the other hand, having a guitar background makes me naturally gravitate toward isomorphic layouts like the Hayden. The English concertina is probably better suited for players accustomed to fixed-do thinking.

 

Yesterday, another friend also recommended the Jay Hayden Concertina. I looked into it, and his 3D-printing manufacturing approach is very appealing to me. It seems there hasn't been a breakthrough in bellows craftsmanship yet, as he still relies on ordering traditional bellows. I think I need to spend some more time learning and practicing to deeply understand my specific needs; perhaps eventually, I'll want to custom-order a personalized Hayden layout.

 

Regarding the Striso board you mentioned, it looks really cool. Actually, before I got my Stagi, I developed a computer-based simulator just to experience the layout. I found that the 46-key Hayden Duet layout maps surprisingly well onto a standard computer keyboard. I algorithmically synthesized the audio sources I needed and got a decent preview of the experience (I've also seen mobile developers make similar touchscreen apps, but the tactile feedback of real buttons just isn't the same). However, I don't use my simulator anymore, because the physical presence and acoustic feel of a real instrument are simply irreplaceable to me.

Edited March 18 by Liu

[David Colpitts]

I am always happy to see both newer and more experienced Hayden players here!  And, as often, thanks to David B. for his generous, thoughtful and expert analyses, and his great music.  To Dimble, I'll ask if you have ever tried to kit up a Striso for sharing music with others?  I have, but only to a limitted extent.  And, to Liu, I'll ask if you have any mind to share your computer-keyboard Hayden simulator with folks here, or beyond?  I think there might be a fairly broad range of people who would appreciate some tactile response, to bridge the gap between touch-screen-only solutions (like Michael Eskin's Hayden Duet app and Shiverware's MusixPro) and the (to me) most excellent Striso board.

 

Anyway, all activity on Haydens  stirs the pot, and I suspect helps spread interest.  It's too bad there isn't more range available new, but it can happen.

[puts]

Feel fre to disregard this if you are absolutely set on the Hayden layout, but I thought I’d share my experience here.

 

I started on the Elise and I also felt really limited by the amount of Hayden instruments available and the lack of fully chromatic instruments. In addition, I was bothered by how much my fingers would have to stretch, even just to play a scale, and how awkward some chords felt. It seemed like a bigger Hayden duet would only make this issue worse.

 

About a week ago, I decided to get a Maccann duet because it seemed to not have the issues I had with the Hayden, and there are a decent number of vintage instruments available. The layout of Maccann instruments don’t make a ton of sense at a glance, but it’s easier to comprehend once you learn the “rules” for what notes appear in which row. It definitely takes a bit longer to learn, and you’ll have to be more aware of what notes you are playing. It was not as difficult as I had imagined though and I didn’t even have to relearn how to play with both hands simultaneously.

 

I also have found the Maccann to be a lot more comfortable to play. It is easier and actually practical to use your pinkies and there’s much less stretching needed. The chord shapes are not consistent, but you can still learn them individually and you also might have the option to pivot on certain fingers when moving between chords.

[Dimble]

7 hours ago, David Colpitts said:

To Dimble, I'll ask if you have ever tried to kit up a Striso for sharing music with others?  I have, but only to a limitted extent.  

I haven't even scratched the surface of what I could do with the Striso as an electronic instrument. To date, I have only played it with the default settings and the headphone out. Lots of potential there, I am just focusing on acoustic ITM right now. 

[Liu]

@David: I'd be more than happy to share it if it could be helpful to others! However, right now it's still a fairly rough version that has to be run from the source code. To make it more user-friendly, I need to find some spare time to polish it, package it into an installer, and ideally provide executable versions for both Windows and macOS. I'm not exactly sure how long that will take, but I might start a dedicated thread for it later on.

@puts: Thanks for sharing! When it comes to the concertina, its appeal to me doesn't change based on the button layout—to be honest, I love all the different variations out there. I just felt that the Hayden layout would offer a gentler learning curve to start with, and it just so happened to be the most accessible one for me to purchase at the moment. Once I get a solid grasp of playing this one, I definitely hope to try out concertinas with other layouts as well.

[wunks]

Here's a way you can experiment with reed changes without altering the instrument.

 

If your Stagi has steel reeds cut a strip of 'fridge magnet the width of the reed tongue and about 1/3 the length.  Place it at the tip.  This will drop the pitch +- one step.  For a half step you can try different lengths or slide the magnet towards the base a bit.  Use a thin / medium thickness magnet.  This seems to work best with lower notes.  Looking at your layout the best choices appear to be the lowest F, or E to get your E flat.  I assume you could raise the pitch on the C# by placing a short piece at the reed base but I haven't tried this.  The higher notes seem to need a thinner strip to stay put.  I Have a Low cello Eb paired this way with the F.  It has remained in place with no adjustment for a couple of years now.

 

Cheers