Time to Tune Reeds?

[David Lay]

1.  When do you decide it is time to adjust your concertina reeds' tuning?  Is it when you test and find one or more to be off by 3 cents or more, or when someone in a session questions your instrument/ playing?  

2.  I have a baritone and have noticed that the lowest notes sound very low initially, but then come up to their assigned frequency.  I expect this is normal, agreed?

[Alex West]

David

 

In my experience, it would be a very rare session where anyone was able to spot that an instrument or any reed within it was 3 cents out of tune.  I routinely play a meantone instrument, a few of the notes of which are double digits of cents "out-of-tune" compared with an equal tempered instrument and I've never had anyone even notice.

 

Pianos (and tuned percussion) are often "stretch" tuned so that the low notes are flattened and the high notes are sharpened compared to equal temperament.  This makes the instrument sound more in tune (generally) although the sharp-eared will often find the upper notes too sharp.

 

Whilst I try to tune an instrument to plus/minus 1 cent (or better if I can), I wouldn't consider wholesale re-tuning if a few notes were (say) 5 cents out - except on an English or duet concertina where the opposite reed was perfect or out by 5 cents in the opposite direction.  Unless of course the player specifically said - "It sounds out.  Give it a complete re-tune."

 

Alex West

[Chris Ghent]

One of my metrics is to play a scale in octaves.  If anything shrieks, one of the reeds needs a tune.  Occasionally one reed  is up and the other down so neither is very out.  

[Clive Thorne]

I think it's when your ears tell you so. As Chris says playing octaves will help highlight any problems.

[d.elliott]

I use a tuning tolerance of +/- 1.5 cents from nominal, that way on an English or Duet I get no real disparity between the inner or outer reed sets or in octaves. I always check the tuning of all reeds after a re-valving, and would not release an instrument if there are reeds more than 3 cents from nominal without talking to the player. Obviously playing pressures ae significant and changes in pressure have different tuning effects at different octaves.

[David Lay]

I understand that my accordion which is "swing" tuned (1 Hz beat) has reeds tuned that are nominally the same ...well...nearly the same.  The C6 tremelo reed is +1.6 cents and the C4 tremelo reed is +6.6 cents to achieve the 1 Hz pulse for each.  This suggests to me that having a reed out of tune by so many cents is more of an issue at higher frequencies than lower frequencies.  ??

Edited March 10 by David Lay

[fred v]

I play only Irish Trad at sessions and noticed my high B kept clashing with the fiddles. I checked it with my phone tuner (the piano tuner everyone uses) and it was out by a couple of cents. At home i have a Peterson strobe tuner and that showed the B was out my 12 cents!! So much for the piano tuner; junk.

 

[David Lay]

Answering my own question, the difference in cents for lower notes tuned for tremelo is a mathmatical necessity rather that being related to perception.  I have read that our minds perceive the two tones as the average.  Wiki's offering identified that 12 cents off can be perceived by most people, but that a lesser difference can be peceived when played in a chord or with a harmony note.  (Consistent with prior comments offered.)  It seems I need to practice tuning skills!

[Clive Thorne]

David, you are correct. The Tremelo/beat frequency is determined by the numerical/absolute difference between the two notes.

 

Eg 1000 and 1002 hertz gives a tremelo of 2 Hz.  2000 and 2002 Hz also gives a 2Hz tremelo,  although the difference is half the number of cents than at 1000Hz.

[Don Taylor]

On 3/11/2026 at 8:38 AM, fred v said:

I play only Irish Trad at sessions and noticed my high B kept clashing with the fiddles. I checked it with my phone tuner (the piano tuner everyone uses) and it was out by a couple of cents. At home i have a Peterson strobe tuner and that showed the B was out my 12 cents!! So much for the piano tuner; junk.

 

A piano tuner is different from an absolute tuner like your Peterson strobe tuner because pianos are 'stretch tuned' at the high and low ends. 

 

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretched_tuning, in particular:

"Solving such dilemmas is at the heart of precise tuning by ear, and all solutions involve some stretching of the higher notes upward and the lower notes downward from their theoretical frequencies. "

 

[Jody Kruskal]

May I suggest that your out of tune high B may be the result of a number of factors and might be fixed without the drastic operation of a proper tuning. I have corrected out of tune reeds several ways without a file.

 

Dirt, dust or corrosion might be the culprit. So the first step is to clean the reed with a crisp $ bill. Take the box apart. Slide the paper under the reed and pull it out, gently scraping the edge of the reed. Look at the paper to see if you have removed a line of material. Do this several times on both sides until the paper comes out clean.

 

Another problem might be a loose reed shoe. If your box has reeds in reed shoes wedged in wooden slots, perhaps the reed shoe is not seated properly. Slide the shoe out and firmly put it back. If that does not make the reed shoe tight, perhaps you need to put a thin strip of cigarette paper to tighten things up.

 

These concertina reeds are very stable and should not ever go out of tune… but they sometimes need maintenance to sound their best.

[Clive Thorne]

Of course, if you are out of tune then one solution is to play really load, so that everyone else thinks it's them that is wrong!😁

[David Lay]

I have been practicing tuning on some old accordion reeds.  I have the Peterson Strobe Android App.  My current challenge is low reeds (E3, C3) whose frequencies seem to wander after starting at about 15 cents low, but then climbing to being nearly in-tune.  

Edited March 17 by David Lay

[Tiposx]

I was taught to tune to the steady frequency rather than the initial reading. I am no expert though.

[David Lay]

Now I find that changing the aperature bellow the reed changes its pitch on both my tuning bellows and fan driven tuner.  I am trying to reduce the variables, though it seems there are too many at the moment.  If I adjust the aperature, I seem to be able to match the reed pitch on the tuner to that which I measured with the reed in the instrument.  I am not quite ready to scratch any instrument reed tongues, however.  Kudos to all of you who do this professionally.

[Don Taylor]

14 hours ago, David Lay said:

frequencies seem to wander after starting at about 15 cents low, but then climbing to being nearly in-tune

How long do they wander?  Long enough to be noticeable?

 

Also, I assume that you are using your squirrel fan based tuning box and maybe the initial fan startup time before it comes to a steady speed has some effect on the reed. 

[David Lay]

2 hours ago, Don Taylor said:

How long do they wander?  Long enough to be noticeable?

 

Also, I assume that you are using your squirrel fan based tuning box and maybe the initial fan startup time before it comes to a steady speed has some effect on the reed. 

On the tuning bellows, the reeds have not settled before the end of the stroke.  The fan is a squirrel cage type with a rheostat control that stays on while I am working. 

I am wondering about the fact that there is no concertina-equivalent chamber between the air aperature and the reed and whether this affects the reed behavior.

[Don Taylor]

Does this really matter?  The squirrel cage cage tuning box settles down to give you a constant tone which is reprodcuible when you turn it off and on again to the same setting on the rheostat.  (I built one based on your design).

 

If you first measure how far out of true the reed sounds when it is in the concertina  (how many cents +/-) then you can use the tuning box to change the reed up or down by the same number of cents.  It seems to me that what is important is that that your tuning box makes a steady and reproducible note for you to adjust.  Your squirrel fan box does this very well.  I don't think that you can expect to get the exact same note from a reed if it is in concertina or on the  tuning box.