Dissonance Posted February 19 Posted February 19 I am asking this question in a separate thread. I wonder about plastic valves. I have experimented with them on the EC and found them to be faster and maybe even superior in sound. I was not able to find enough different thicknesses to make them ideal for each note. I had to do things like weaken the bottom of the valve to mimmic a lighter valve. Any one else have any experiences with this. I think there might be a lot of potential there. Why don't we see people doing this?
rob_mcsweeney Posted February 19 Posted February 19 What would be the recommended adhesive for fitting plastic valves, presumably not the rabbit or fish glue that would be used for leather?
Theo Posted February 19 Posted February 19 36 minutes ago, Dissonance said: Why don't we see people doing this? I think it's mainly tradition. I think that concertina players on average are quite conservative (small c) and repairers like myself take that into account and tend to use traditional leather valves.
Dissonance Posted February 19 Author Posted February 19 52 minutes ago, rob_mcsweeney said: What would be the recommended adhesive for fitting plastic valves, presumably not the rabbit or fish glue that would be used for leather? Contact cement is often used in Accordion world. Superglue gel seems to work although I doubt that is a very strong bond with the valves. Removing either is not as easy as removing PVA and has more potential for damaging the "sound board".
Wally Carroll Posted February 19 Posted February 19 It’s been a very long time since I experimented with this but I think the issue was that the plastic by itself was too light and creates a fluttering sound. This can also happen with leather valves that are too light and is most noticeable when switching directions on the same button on the lowest notes. I believe it is from the winding down of the first note played whereby the mass of the tongue causes the valve on the opposite side of the pan to rapidly open and close as the tongue comes to a stop. Thicker or stiffer valves usually fix this issue.
Dissonance Posted February 20 Author Posted February 20 Wally Carroll, Thanks for pointing this out. I haven't seen fluttering plastic valves on the concertina yet. Of course my plastic valve experience is extremely limited at this point. I will look out for it.
wschruba Posted February 20 Posted February 20 @Dissonance you can purchase sets of plastic valves from accordion suppliers. As fluttering is considered "bad" in the accordion world, too, they sell them in sizes to accommodate that. Small strips of stainless steel are used as helper springs, affixed with an adhesive paper dot, to minimize that issue on notes that need it. You can use a shellac stick, melted/dripped onto the valve tongue, to affix the spring, too. I've made my own helper springs from .001" stainless shim...a good price for experimenting. Easy does it with the springs, incidentally--it does not take much to make a noticeable difference in valve performance. A piece of packing tape [to be fair, I use polyimide tape for its superior strength] may even be enough at times. Better quality valves are bi-layer, either plastic or leather/plastic. As for adhesives, I've used burnt shellac (thicker burn) with good results on my own instruments (valve-to-metal accordion reed frame), but I would hesitate to use it on an instrument for a paying customer (due to lack of long-term testing...). If attaching plastic to wood, it would be prudent to use a "removable" adhesive, since you would eventually need to remove valves. Rough up the area of the valve to be glued on a piece of sandpaper or a nail board to give the adhesive something to work with...I have no doubt that a sufficiently roughed piece of plastic would hold on tight using gum arabic. https://www.lamalleauxaccordeons.fr/en/108-reed-leathers-valves has a good selection of stuff if you happen to be in the EU...
Clive Thorne Posted February 20 Posted February 20 Re suitable thicknesses of plastic for plastic valves, has anyone (else) used Plastic shim material, which is available in a wide range of thickeness? e.g: https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/shim-kits/0681407 I have done, some on concers, but mostly on melodeons. Seems to work OK.
Frank Edgley Posted February 22 Posted February 22 On 2/19/2026 at 3:22 PM, rob_mcsweeney said: What would be the recommended adhesive for fitting plastic valves, presumably not the rabbit or fish glue that would be used for leather? Just because it's an old instrument doesn't mean you have to use antique glues. BTW plastic valves work well for smaller reeds nut I have found that plastic valves can be noisy on long reeds. 3
rob_mcsweeney Posted February 22 Posted February 22 3 hours ago, Frank Edgley said: Just because it's an old instrument doesn't mean you have to use antique glues. BTW plastic valves work well for smaller reeds nut I have found that plastic valves can be noisy on long reeds. Thank you Frank, What adhesive would you suggest?
Clive Thorne Posted February 23 Posted February 23 19 hours ago, Frank Edgley said: Just because it's an old instrument doesn't mean you have to use antique glues. BTW plastic valves work well for smaller reeds nut I have found that plastic valves can be noisy on long reeds. I'm with you on this Frank. Perhaps i'm a bit of a rebel, but I'm sure that those early concertina makers would have killed for some PVA, contact or epoxy adhesives, along with a varity of engineering plastics & PTFE etc.
RAc Posted February 23 Posted February 23 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Clive Thorne said: I'm with you on this Frank. Perhaps i'm a bit of a rebel, but I'm sure that those early concertina makers would have killed for some PVA, contact or epoxy adhesives, along with a varity of engineering plastics & PTFE etc. I tend to agree, but then again I am also very certain that those early makers didn't have a reason to be worried about environmental concerns (in this context the planet pollution by microplastic). I am not opposed to plastics in general; in many applications they are true progress and indispensable, but we as a species DO have a serious problem with the ubiqutousness of plastics. Sorry to be a party pooper... Edited February 23 by RAc
Clive Thorne Posted February 23 Posted February 23 (edited) 20 hours ago, RAc said: I tend to agree, but then again I am also very certain that those early makers didn't have a reason to be worried about environmental concerns (in this context the planet pollution by microplastic). I am not opposed to plastics in general; in many applications they are true progress and indispensable, but we as a species DO have a serious problem with the ubiqutousness of plastics. Sorry to be a party pooper... Ah, but if you stick with leather you upset the vegans! A tricky path to tread.😁 Edited February 24 by Clive Thorne 1
Chris Ghent Posted February 24 Posted February 24 Accordion valves, (as opposed to plastic accordion valves) have a hundred years more development at higher volumes (quantity, not sound) than concertina valves. Consequently they have to be taken seriously. The better quality ones are either made from a synthetic leather called Vileda, or from leather. They have a couple of different stiffening methods; either a stiffening spring wire glued to the top of the valve, or one or more layers of plastic, mylar I believe, glued to the top. These are mainly used on longer valves. I have used the leather ones with the mylar stiffening on low notes on several concertinas and found them to be reliable and effective. I have seen instruments from a respected maker using these also. I have dreamed of a single easy synthetic valve material, constant and effective, but it is not to be. I remember seeing Wally using some form of synthetic a while ago but saw leather on a recent example. I have taken this as a person who has done the work has found the best way.
David Lay Posted February 24 Posted February 24 On 2/19/2026 at 4:19 PM, Dissonance said: Contact cement is often used in Accordion world. Superglue gel seems to work although I doubt that is a very strong bond with the valves. Removing either is not as easy as removing PVA and has more potential for damaging the "sound board". This post might help: 1
Wally Carroll Posted February 25 Posted February 25 On 2/23/2026 at 8:41 PM, Chris Ghent said: I have dreamed of a single easy synthetic valve material, constant and effective, but it is not to be. I remember seeing Wally using some form of synthetic a while ago but saw leather on a recent example. I have taken this as a person who has done the work has found the best way. I have found that Mylar on leather works best. Originally I tried fully coated valves but found this slows down the response a little too much. Now I use a thin strip down the middle of the valve and that seems to do the trick. The smallest valves don’t need this. Without Mylar, we would find that a significant number of valves would have to be immediately switched out because of noise when reversing directions. Some notes would take 4 or 5 attempts to find a suitable valve. With Mylar, I often have a 100% success rate on the first try. 1
Chris Ghent Posted February 27 Posted February 27 As a “switch out” devotee I have found the best approach is to not get personally involved with any particular valve; if there is the slightest doubt, it’s gone. But a valve that works here and now may not work in another country or down from the (small) mountain where I live. I have often used Columbia Organ Leather X heavy leather , stiffening the lower valves with soaking and drying. It is easy to make these too stiff, leading to an unexciting bottom end. A few years go I discovered a shop not too far from here (600miles/1000k, feels almost local) has Cabretta, otherwise known as hair sheep, which I believe is the source material for Columbia’s X heavy. On my second visit (on the first, not knowing the parameters, I bought the first one I saw, which was too thick and too soft) I felt every hide and chose stiffer (note, stiffer, not stiff) ones. Much more successful. Wally, I have seen your striped valves, very impressive. My workshop is perched between 19th and cheap early 21st C technology and plenty of your output seems futuristic to me. I end up thinking, how does he do that? It would be completely understandable if you did not wish to answer, but, you say coating with mylar, is this different to gluing? Cheers Chris 2
Wally Carroll Posted February 27 Posted February 27 (edited) 16 hours ago, Chris Ghent said: Wally, I have seen your striped valves, very impressive. My workshop is perched between 19th and cheap early 21st C technology and plenty of your output seems futuristic to me. I end up thinking, how does he do that? It would be completely understandable if you did not wish to answer, but, you say coating with mylar, is this different to gluing? Cheers Chris It’s a self adhesive product. I just went looking for the product at the place where I purchased it many years ago and I couldn’t find it. So I measured the stuff I have and it is about .0025” thick. Then I went and measured a piece of clear packing tape and it was the same. I then cut off a thin piece of each and blew air on them and watched how they responded and they were pretty much identical. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s not the same material. Edited February 27 by Wally Carroll
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