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C/c# Layout Of 20 Button Anglo


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Personal opinion as I have never seen or played such a beast, but I believe that concertinas are not like button accordions. The advantage of the concertina is that you can use both hands to play the melody. The button accordion is designed for the player to move his right hand up and down, and is not "tethered" to one spot as on an anglo. I think the fingering would probably not be easy. There was the experimental concertina made with what amounted to a piano keyboard-like setup. It was a flop! A similar concept to the C/C# concept, where, in order to play in any key other than C, one would have to do a lot of cross row fingering on the same hand, and there was no possibility of cross-row fingering on the other hand as you can with the anglo.

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I wanted a 20 double reed Anglo and at Klingenthal they built me one for 300,- (You can see it here:https://fotoalbum.web.de/gast/klaus-guhl/Klingenthal)

It has one special C#/Bb reed on right hand C row 5 button, so I can play tunes in D and F too. That makes sense for me.

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In the early days of ebay I recall an early Suttner up for sale. It was a three row anglo in B/C/G. This has been tried in a number of variations over the years. Didn't catch on, but that doesn't tell you if it was a great idea or not.

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Personal opinion as I have never seen or played such a beast, but I believe that concertinas are not like button accordions. The advantage of the concertina is that you can use both hands to play the melody. The button accordion is designed for the player to move his right hand up and down, and is not "tethered" to one spot as on an anglo. I think the fingering would probably not be easy. There was the experimental concertina made with what amounted to a piano keyboard-like setup. It was a flop! A similar concept to the C/C# concept, where, in order to play in any key other than C, one would have to do a lot of cross row fingering on the same hand, and there was no possibility of cross-row fingering on the other hand as you can with the anglo.

 

I will second Frank's opinion on this one. Since I play both the button accordion and the concertina, I believe I have some basis for comparison. One thing to look at is the fact that half step boxes are actually rather rare in the accordion world outside of Irish Music in large part because in order to become chromatic in melody you tend to loose alot of the chords you might play on the right hand side (A D chord, for example is impossible on the right hand side of a B/C box for example). You also loose the flexibility of having alot of notes in two directions. On the 30 button C/G concertina most of the notes show up in both directions... and I use them in both directions, on half step button accordions only 2 notes (B and E on a B/C accordion) occur in both directions. Now for Irish music on a button accordion this is not a big deal since you play mostly melody and you have tons of air to play the melody with; the left hand side can be set up to give you enough diads that you can make alot of chords by combining right and left hand play and of course most players only use chords sparingly anyway.

 

Now, the final nail in the coffin comes down to some of the advantages of the half step layout for the button accordion. On the B/C and the C#/D accordions having a half step layout can make it much easier to move around the keyboard than a conventional fifth tuned box. There are quite a few tunes I play on the button accordion where I can use a C# or an F# as the note for repositioning my hand; this is particularly true on BC#D and EF#G triplets, but it often is the case in other circumstances too. Now, not only is there minimal need to reposition your hands on a concertina (particularly if you play accross the rows as opposed to along them) but playing those triplets would also be devilishly difficult with your hands in the more fixed position that concertinas afford; in large part because the buttons are so close together, in practice you would only have two fingers to work with and crossing fingers doesn't work so well :). On the flip side, it is very easy to play the BC#D triplet and the higher EF#G triplet is not too tough (The lower one is a bitch since there is no lower E on the G row.... but it can be managed with practice).

 

--

Bill

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So you guys don't do crossfingering on the same side?

That's news to me, because I remember Berthram Levi suggests it and when I was

testing Morse G/C, I used a tune "Barynya" from russian tutor by P. Londonov, transcribed for russian uni-sonoric button accordion. I couldn't use basses, of course, but the trebble part was harmony heavy and it worked almost fine with same side crossfingering. Except the very high notes, the music was easlily played on the Anglo.

Or may be I'm mixing something.

Londonov tutor can be found here

http://www.garm.by.ru/samouch/londonov.htm

I think the page is 82.

Take a look.

 

I realize why piano style concertina keyboard will not work.

If Frank is right, I'll have to get 30 button. By some reason It's not exciting me. I think it may be even more laborious process to find one that I like, then constructing one from pieces.

 

Well, last try:

What, if I will shift accidental row one-two buttons up/down the row? In priciple it should un-tangle fingers and make cross-fingering easier? No?

Thanks.

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So you guys don't do crossfingering on the same side?

 

Could you define what you mean by cross fingering here? When I use that term I tend to think of having one finger literally being brought under or over the other... so I might play the d with my index finger and then the b with my middle finger... and if that is the case, then no, I don't do that. I occasionally will do a partial cross.. so that two buttons that are in the same position of adjacent rows will be played by two different fingers... but even that I am not crazy about because I think it is a little slower.. better though than uneccessary playing notes on two different buttons with the same finger (though I do that to sometimes if I can't figure a better way to do it).

 

That's news to me, because I remember Berthram Levi suggests it and when I was

testing Morse G/C, I used a tune "Barynya" from russian tutor by P. Londonov, transcribed for russian uni-sonoric button accordion. I couldn't use basses, of course, but the trebble part was harmony heavy and it worked almost fine with same side crossfingering. Except the very high notes, the music was easlily played on the Anglo.

Or may be I'm mixing something.

Londonov tutor can be found here

http://www.garm.by.ru/samouch/londonov.htm

I think the page is 82.

Take a look.

 

I realize why piano style concertina keyboard will not work.

If Frank is right, I'll have to get 30 button. By some reason It's not exciting me. I think it may be even more laborious process to find one that I like, then constructing one from pieces.

 

Well, last try:

What, if I will shift accidental row one-two buttons up/down the row? In priciple it should un-tangle fingers and make cross-fingering easier? No?

Thanks.

 

Yeah I suppose it would.. but then again, certain triplets might not be as easy as you think (which is easier, two fingers on one hand with another finger on the other hand pressing between them or or your ring, index then middle finger?

 

If you don't want a 30 button.. well you can get most of what you need by going with a 24 button.

 

--

Bill

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If you don't want a 30 button.. well you can get most of what you need by going with a 24 button.

 

It's not the 26 vs 30 vs 20. If I wanted a concertina to be my main instrument, I'd get 30 button from Frank Edgley or Button Box. In G/D.

It's the sound/price combination. I'm not sure about conceritna's nasal sound and think that may be, just may be if I replace cheap Hohner concertina reeds with bigger, thinner or softer Pokerwork reeds - I might get a better instrument, with bright open full sound. (just like my tiny one row Hohner single voice accordion).

Doing it to 30 button instrument is expencive and doubtful, there's only this much space inside.

But doing it to some kind of Schooler is another matter.

Just 20 button in G/C is like 10 button in C with emphasis on push-pull, which I like. Has something to do with punchy style, that clicks with me. So I thought, why not make it chromatic? I can play mediterranian in C, why not?

Triplets etc., which is important in Irish music (I guess) is not such a deal elsewere. If you want to embelish a tune, the best way is to make a reasonable variation. Way too often I hear beginners overloading their playing with "embellishments", only destroying the rhythm and melody. So that is not the issue for me. It's, again, price-availability-sound variation.

And I can gather my kids around a desk and do it with them etc. Creative babysitting that is.

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Could you define what you mean by cross fingering here? When I use that term I tend to think of having one finger literally being brought under or over the other... so I might play the d with my index finger and then the b with my middle finger...

Bill, are you making a distinction between "cross fingering" and "cross-row fingering"? I'm used to the latter term meaning simply that one uses buttons in both the C and G rows, even when playing in keys of C and G.

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Could you define what you mean by cross fingering here? When I use that term I tend to think of having one finger literally being brought under or over the other... so I might play the d with my index finger and then the b with my middle finger...

Bill, are you making a distinction between "cross fingering" and "cross-row fingering"? I'm used to the latter term meaning simply that one uses buttons in both the C and G rows, even when playing in keys of C and G.

 

 

Yeah kind of.. mainly because I didn't understand what was meant when the term crossfingering was used. If the word row had appeared then I would have assumed it was playing across the rows. On the Button accordion I often cross fingers during triplets or just to reposition my hand so I was wondering if the original user of the term here had meant that.

 

--

Bill

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>On the Button accordion I often cross fingers during triplets or just to reposition my >hand so I was wondering if the original user of the term here had meant that.

 

Hey. Of course I didn't mean literally crossing fingers.

It's cross-row fingering.

So if you revise your replies to me with this in mind, may I ask you to take a moment and think about semi-tone 20 button? Perhabs with accidental row shifted one button down?

Thanks.

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I think it would depend on what you want to play.

 

For Irish style, where you don't play many chords (if any), and play the tune across both hands then I can see the advantages - a fully chromatic instrument in twenty keys!

 

If your interested in playing English style (melody on the right, chords on the left) then I can see a couple of problems:

Firstly; you'd only have a range of C to D# (ie an octave and a bit) on the right hand, where as the C/G arrangment gives you C to B, ie almost 2 octaves (although not chromatic).

Secondly, the conventional C/g arrangement makes may of the common chords used in these keys easily available, but the C/C# would be limited.

 

Along time ago I dabbled with a C/C# melodeon, and I seem to remeber that you could get most combinations of two notes in one direction or the other, but once you wanted three notes only a few (useful) combinations were possible.

 

 

Clive.

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  • 2 weeks later...

>Firstly; you'd only have a range of C to D# (ie an octave and a bit) on the right hand, >where as the C/G arrangment gives you C to B, ie almost 2 octaves (although not >chromatic).

>Secondly, the conventional C/g arrangement makes may of the common chords used >in these keys easily available, but the C/C# would be limited.

 

Me:

Yes, the range of the right hand is the problem. It can be played around a little by using the chords for the part of melody on the right and then, when melody goes into the left, not play chords. I remember playing with 20 button C/G Lachenal, and it was mostly the case. It sounded well though, gave it sort of syncompated feel.

I also realize that full chords are not available outside of the home key, but there are all combinations of 2 notes in those chords, which is good enough for most music.

I remember on 20 button Anglo, when you go up in range in G row, while playing in C, not all chords are available, unless you jump to the G row and all of a sudden your chords become thin.

 

So ideally custom built instrumen will have shifted C row one button up to get rid of un-useable high pitch squeakers and free room for low notes, which will give right hand almost two most useable octaves and the layout will look like this:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

o o o o o ||||| o o o o o C#

o o o o o ||||| o o o o o C

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

so far available 20 buttons cheap cabinets come like this:

 

o o o o o ||||||| o o o o o

o o o o o ||||||| o o o o o

 

It is very inconvinientl, so interim solution might be:

 

C# low o o o o o ||||||| o o o o o C high

C low o o o o o ||||||| o o o o o C# high

 

I just looked at the post and all my schemes came up wrong.

Let's try another attempt:

 

So ideally custom built instrumen will have shifted C row one button up to get rid of un-useable high pitch squeakers and free room for low notes, which will give right hand almost two most useable octaves and the layout will look like this:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

/ / / / / ||||| / / / / / ---C#

/ / / / / ||||| / / / / / ---C

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

so far available 20 buttons cheap cabinets come like this:

 

/ / / / / ||||||| \ \ \ \ \

/ / / / / ||||||| \ \ \ \ \

 

It is very inconvinientl, so interim solution might be:

 

C# low ------ / / / / / ||||||| \ \ \ \ \ ----C high

C low ------ / / / / / ||||||| \ \ \ \ \ ----C# high

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