Why are Anglos faster at push pull than EC?

[Dissonance]

I play Irish on EC at speed and use bellows reversals between notes among many other things. My playing sound more Anglo than EC. Fore example I would expect to play a bunch of bellows reversal in a run without them slowing me down. I play the fastest EC I have ever found (Wheatstone model 21). Yet most decent Anglos outperform my EC when it comes to crisp bellow reversals. Where does this difference live?

 

1. It is not the reeds. I have swapped EC reeds in to Anglos and vise versa (those reed that happen to fit) and it did not alter the character of the instrument much. 

2. I am afraid it might have to do with chamber volume. Anglos Chamber sizes are often dialed in to maximize the "Shriek and Volume", which ECs seem to stay away from in favor of better balance though the instrument. I wonder if the chamber volume that produces the Shrieky sound also is what makes the reeds so responsive. In that case I'll never get to where I want to be on the EC.

3. Lastly, while Anglos clearly don't have them I wonder about plastic valves. I have experimented with them and found them to be faster and maybe even superior in sound. I was not able to find enough different thicknesses to make them ideal for each note. So there might be a bit of a supply problem. Any one else have any experiences with this.

 

 

Edited February 18 by Dissonance

[pgroff]

Does your playing posture with the english concertina hold both ends extremely stable in every dimension except the linear horizontal dimension that runs through the center line of the bellows, and then when you attempt to "change bellows direction" do you *only* change the direction of force applied to the instrument along that linear horizontal dimension? If not, you may be using movement, energy, and time when attempting to "change bellows direction" that doesn't immediately translate to an instantaneous change from "more pressure inside the bellows than outside the concertina" to "less pressure inside the bellows than outside the concertina" or vice versa.

 

This issue is actually not unique to english concertinas. I've seen anglo players who put a lot of extraneous wiggle into their movements when attempting to change bellows direction. In some cases (especially with some beginners) the valves can be "confused" by a sort of turbulence due to a sloppy wiggle of the bellows, that doesn't translate into a clean, instantaneous pressure change inside the bellows. You can especially hear that when some anglo players hold down the lowest buttons on the left side (e.g. the C/G button), and wiggle the bellows in a way that doesn't create a clean alternation between the intended "press note" and the intended "draw note" for that button.

 

But I think it may generally be easier to create the instantaneous change in bellows internal air pressure when your entire hand can be applied to the instrument and/or to the handstrap as with anglos and duets.

 

Please note, if someone is happy with the way they play and sound I'm not trying to prescribe how you should operate the concertina. I do that with students, but not with the general public. There are many ways to manage posture with concertinas and many solutions that work musically. And a sort of floppy, wiggly "caterpillar wrestling" approach can also be a fun visual effect for some performers.

 

I'm specifically suggesting an idea to consider, since you yourself have raised the issue that when you play the english concertina, your change from the press reed to draw reed doesn't seem as immediate as you want. 

 

 

Edited February 18 by pgroff

[wunks]

I play duet but one is a large 7 fold Wheatstone with EC style bellows that remain tightly closed when at rest on the table.  The other is a 6.25" 6 fold Jeffries with the thicker "anglo" bellows that push apart when placed on the table in a closed position.  If I hold down a button on the Jeff and pull out past midway the note will continue to sound when I stop applying pressure as the bellows contract on their own.  Likewise, if I push to close the note will continue to sound as the bellows seek equilibrium.  The effect is strongest at either extreme with a sweet spot somewhere near the middle.  The Wheatstone will do this only at a nearly full draw.  In other words the Anglo bellows are springy.  There are threads here somewhere about this effect.

[Anglo-Irishman]

28 minutes ago, wunks said:

In other words the Anglo bellows are springy.  There are threads here somewhere about this effect.

I think this is a main reason for your phenomenon!

When I needed a replacement bellows for my Stagi Anglo, I enquired with Wim Wakker (then still in NL), and it was pointed out to me that his firm makes two different kinds of bellows: one for EC, one for Anglo. The Anglo bellows are "stouter", that is, have less "wobble" in them, so they have less slack to take up between pressing and drawing.

With the new, "stout" bellows, my Stagi was twice the instrument it had been before. 

 

1 hour ago, pgroff said:

I think it may generally be easier to create the instantaneous change in bellows internal air pressure when your entire hand can be applied to the instrument and/or to the handstrap as with anglos and duets.

I had also thought of that - it seems to be the most obvious difference between EC and Anglo.

Cheers,

John

[Dissonance]

pgroff, I know exactly what you are talking about and have been fighting the wiggle and sloppiness of the design almost from the beginning. I now play with hand straps and uses the front like a hinge. I even spent some time with Goran's hand brace ideas, but ultimately couldn't design any hand rests that were both effective and didn't restrict movement on the lower notes. Through a combination of things I am close to eliminating the wiggle. I think what I am talking about must live deep in the nature of the instrument.

 

wunks, 

Interesting, the difference in bellows is something I have pretty much been ignoring. I remember W. Wakker telling me that an open bellows on the English should just sit there in pretty much any position without tension. Like you say the Anglo bellows are often but not always a different animal. I'd be surprises if this was what makes the difference, but then I have been surprised before.

 

[pgroff]

(re-thought my reply and deleted)

Edited February 19 by pgroff
re-thought reply

[hjcjones]

Have you considered that Anglo hand straps give a much firmer grip on the instrument than EC thumbstraps?

[Matt Heumann]

Isn't it also very likely the the Anglo is changing push/pull dozens of times more per tune than EC? Sometimes I can play an entire A or B part in one direction, where as an Anglo player may change many, many times on the same part, resulting with a more "broken-in" relaxed bellows.

[Michael Eskin]

Assuming an English and Anglo concertina with similar condition bellows and similar quality reeds, I'd think this would primarily be a function of how the player supports and moves the instrument, not some property of the instruments themselves.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but here's not that much fundamentally different really between the two internally (other than the the same pitch reeds for push/pull on the English), it's primarily the mechanical button/lever system that is different.
 

[Dissonance]

hjcjones

Well yes, and I do play with wrist straps, albeit not as efficient as on the Anglo. I  am betting there is more too it. 

 

Mat Heuman,

Playing more that a handful of notes in on direction is highly undesirable when playing Irish. It causes eye rolling, vomiting and meme creation. Jokes aside, it is clear that when I walk into an Irish session with an EC I am treated with suspicion until I prove I can play Irish music like it it is supposed to sound. For me that means mostly following the bowing and ornaments the "big dog" is playing on the fiddle. The bellows switches which are not those of the Anglos are probably only slightly less frequent than the Anglo would play. 

 

Michael Eskin

-I am sure that the awkwardness of the silly holding system has something to do with it.

-The mechanical advantage and speed of the two systems has got to be "awash".

-As was pointed out to me in this thread, the bellows are actually different. I bet that is quite significant. I totally missed that.

-The reed chambers are really different. Think about the power you get out of a Jefferies. Those are loud as hell and extremely responsive. You can actually get some of the notes on the EC to sound like that by altering chamber sizes, but it leads to a very unbalanced instrument. The concept is similar to pulling your uilleann regulators partially out of the mainstalk. All hell breaks loose and nothing is tuned right anymore although all you did is alter the reed chamber size. 

 

[hjcjones]

Reed chambers are characteristic of different makers, not types of concertina. My Crabb anglo has parallel chambers similar to those found in Jeffries, but my Wheatstone has radial chambers. I don't notice any difference in response on push-pull

[Alex West]

 

45 minutes ago, hjcjones said:

Reed chambers are characteristic of different makers, not types of concertina. My Crabb anglo has parallel chambers similar to those found in Jeffries, but my Wheatstone has radial chambers. I don't notice any difference in response on push-pull

 

I'd agree with this.  I've seen Lachenals with radial and with parallel chambers as well and the response hasn't changed noticeably.  It is noticeable that the chamber size & shape affects the tone (and the overtones) considerably.  It's particularly noticeable on the larger Crabb and Jeffries where some reeds are squashed into small chambers towards the centre of the reed pan.  It's also noticeable that the dimension from the end of the chamber to the start of the reed tongue can affect the tone, but I haven't found that the response varies significantly.

Having said that, I think I remember Geoff Crabb saying that the relationship between the pad hole and the reed tongue (and hence airflow) is critical so that could affect response?  I suspect that if you compared a Wheatstone anglo with a Wheatstone EC, it would be other things that would affect speed of playing though - my vote is for the bellows and hand stability

 

Alex West

[wunks]

This thing about the bellows.  If the reason for thicker ( and springier ) bellows is not to facilitate faster and smoother playing then what is it?  Did Wim Wakker invent them?  The bellows on my Jeffries are replacements over 50 years old at least and the instrument came out of London.  When did they originate?  Did the earliest Anglos have them?  Have any makers past or present made statements about their function?  New thread?

[aeolina]

Not the best snaps I could manage but here is a quick look at the latest modifications to my Caledonian Concertina. As described elsewhere, the system's two inner rows are just as in the English but the outer rows have novel arrangements to facilitate the playing of Scottish and Irish music. The straps and supports are of the Müller type.

 

Having played it for over a year I have aged removable neoprene (?) wraps to the straps made from joint supports bought from my local pharmacy. 

 

Note also the recent experimental application of semi-rigid foam (from a package delivery) to give additional support to the lower palms close to the wrist.

 

I find these additions are transformative in the playing of traditional music, giving a much more intimate, controlled and responsive interaction between the hands and the instrument, including speed, although that in itself is not my aspiration.

 

I am currently making new wider straps that I suspect will improve this further.

 

See previous posts on the Caledonian Concertina project.

 

Stuart

 

 

[fred v]

I also play Irish only on a Wheatstone 21 EC (36 button) with hand straps. I do reverse the bellows usually at the end of a measure and sometimes more often when the phrasing needs it. I have two instruments, one with springy bellows and one with really loose bellows. I prefer the loose one and it plays really fast.

Look for my thread "Hot rodding the EC". It is about making the plates to go over the buttons Muller style as shown above. That will remove a lot of unnecessary button travel and add a touch sensation. I am moving toward the Anglo style straps as mentioned above as the next step in my evolution.

 

The thoughts on hinging the bellows at the front is what I do but I do wonder if moving straight in and out would create greater volume of air and thus quicker reed response.

[hjcjones]

I would hazard a guess that anglo bellows have to be more robust to withstand the rapid push-pulling, which ECs and duets can avoid.

 

As a harmonic-style anglo player I make a lot of use of reversals in order to minimise push-pulling, unless it's unavoidable or musically useful. My aim is to play complete phrases in the same direction, as far as possible, to keep the chords smooth. It also helps to manage air, which is an essential part of anglo playing.  I find it a little ironic that an EC player is trying to do the opposite, although I understand the reasons.

[Steve Schulteis]

21 hours ago, Dissonance said:

As was pointed out to me in this thread, the bellows are actually different. I bet that is quite significant. I totally missed that.

 

I think this is overblown. As an Anglo player, I don't want the bellows to be preloaded or springy. They should be tight and responsive for sure, but they should hold their position if I'm not applying any force, except at the very extremes. Some folks have different preferences, but I don't think special bellows construction is what creates/permits the characteristic bouncy playing style.

[Dissonance]

5 hours ago, hjcjones said:

Reed chambers are characteristic of different makers, not types of concertina. My Crabb anglo has parallel chambers similar to those found in Jeffries, but my Wheatstone has radial chambers. I don't notice any difference in response on push-pull

The big difference in Reed Chambers as far as sound and response is in the the "volume vs frequency" not the arrangement. If you experiment with chambers you can produce some pretty hair raising sounds just by altering the volume.

5 hours ago, Alex West said:

 

 

I'd agree with this.  I've seen Lachenals with radial and with parallel chambers as well and the response hasn't changed noticeably.  It is noticeable that the chamber size & shape affects the tone (and the overtones) considerably.  It's particularly noticeable on the larger Crabb and Jeffries where some reeds are squashed into small chambers towards the centre of the reed pan.  It's also noticeable that the dimension from the end of the chamber to the start of the reed tongue can affect the tone, but I haven't found that the response varies significantly.

Having said that, I think I remember Geoff Crabb saying the relationship between the pad hole and the reed tongue (and hence airflow) is critical so that could affect response?  I suspect that if you compared a Wheatstone anglo with a Wheatstone EC, it would be other things that would affect speed of playing though - my vote is for the bellows and hand stability

 

Alex West

That is a pretty deep subject. The fact that absolutely spectacular instruments have seemingly random chamber restrictions tells you someone spend a lot of time experimenting. Pad hole verses reed tongue is not something that has been on my radar. 

4 hours ago, wunks said:

This thing about the bellows.  If the reason for thicker ( and springier ) bellows is not to facilitate faster and smoother playing then what is it?  Did Wim Wakker invent them?  The bellows on my Jeffries are replacements over 50 years old at least and the instrument came out of London.  When did they originate?  Did the earliest Anglos have them?  Have any makers past or present made statements about their function?  New thread?

I don't know where that came from. Intuitively it makes sense to match bellows to playing style. 

3 hours ago, aeolina said:

Not the best snaps I could manage but here is a quick look at the latest modifications to my Caledonian Concertina. As described elsewhere, the system's two inner rows are just as in the English but the outer rows have novel arrangements to facilitate the playing of Scottish and Irish music. The straps and supports are of the Müller type.................

 

I will have to spend some time with your Caledonian project, very interesting stuff. I have tried that exact hand strap arrangement. I find both the strap being so far up the hand and the block limit my acess to the the lower buttons. I can't do a "three finger swip" triplet at all with that setup. Even a "double tap" like when you are following a banjo player becomes problematic for me. 

For me the strap in that arrangement has to be very loose which defeats the purpose. On the other had my EC wrist straps come with their own set of problems. 

 

2 hours ago, fred v said:

I also play Irish only on a Wheatstone 21 EC (36 button) with hand straps. I do reverse the bellows usually at the end of a measure and sometimes more often when the phrasing needs it. I have two instruments, one with springy bellows and one with really loose bellows. I prefer the loose one and it plays really fast.

Look for my thread "Hot rodding the EC". It is about making the plates to go over the buttons Muller

I will spend some time with your Hot rodding thread since that is really what I am trying to do here. 

33 minutes ago, hjcjones said:

....... I find it a little ironic that an EC player is trying to do the opposite, although I understand the reasons.

Yes, it seems like we are all doing opposite things trying to get what we can't have. It is that the EC when left to its own devices plays melodies like a wet noodle. It is like playing fiddle with a 10' bow.