mpcorbett Posted February 3 Posted February 3 (edited) I bought this back around 1998/1999 and have always wished I could get a more certain date or date range for it. I bought it from Paul Groff, who estimated c.1870. The serial # label is gone, and it's not written anywhere on the inside. I thought maybe the brass corners and/or bellows papers might help narrow down a date range. The only other time I've seen a Wheatstone with brass corners is a photo of a baritone amboyna model in the book The Wheatstone Concertina in Victorian England. That one is also estimated to be c.1870. Any help is appreciated! Edited February 3 by mpcorbett Spelling 1
Stephen Chambers Posted February 3 Posted February 3 The brass corners are a "tropicalising" or "campaign" feature, to hold the instrument together under hot/humid tropical conditions. You'd sometimes see "campaign furniture" that has similar brass reinforcements, made for army officers, or missionaries, etc. ... 2
SqueezyC Posted February 4 Posted February 4 I have an 1872 48 key rosewood which has the same fretwork pattern.
rob_mcsweeney Posted February 4 Posted February 4 That fretwork pattern seems to have had a very long currency, my 1906 Lachenal has the same fret. I have seen it on other Wheatstones and wonder if those models were subcontracted to Lachenal, or possibly Louis Lachenal made more than one router jig for that pattern,leaving one behind at Wheatstones when he went self employed.
Stephen Chambers Posted February 4 Posted February 4 7 hours ago, rob_mcsweeney said: That fretwork pattern seems to have had a very long currency, my 1906 Lachenal has the same fret. I have seen it on other Wheatstones and wonder if those models were subcontracted to Lachenal''... I've been meaning to also comment on the fretwork, and the bellows papers, which are typical of Lachenal's mid/upper range of instruments at the time, but I needed to remind myself of what I'd researched/written about in my paper Some Notes on Lachenal Concertina Production and Serial Numbers. Louis Lachenal started making concertinas for Wheatstone's, as a subcontractor, at George Yard, Princes Street, Soho in 1848. Then, from 1853-1858, he occupied Alpha and Omega Cottages, British School Lane, Chiswick (only a short walk from Charles Wheatstone's house), as a ‘House’ and ‘Manufactory’. On the expiration of Wheatstone's Patent he then set up his own business at 8, Little James Street, 16 Bedford Row, London, W.C., and I believe his firm continued to manufacture for Wheatstone’s until the 13700s series in late 1865/early 1866. 2
pgroff Posted February 5 Posted February 5 (edited) Also worth mentioning is that this one has riveted reeds and solid (not laminated) rosewood ends (with some damage), if I remember it correctly (not having seen it in 25 + years). Michael, please correct me if that's not the case. I'm not sure whether this one had a hidden serial number or whether my date estimate of 1870 (ca) was based on the riveted reeds and solid rosewood ends. At that time I didn't have as much knowledge about concertina dating as is available to all of us now, through online sharing of resources including Stephen's research, Neil Wayne's, etc. Also interesting to compare: https://www.concertinaconnection.com/wheatstone 19752.htm Edited February 5 by pgroff
mpcorbett Posted February 5 Author Posted February 5 11 hours ago, pgroff said: Also worth mentioning is that this one has riveted reeds and solid (not laminated) rosewood ends (with some damage), if I remember it correctly (not having seen it in 25 + years). Michael, please correct me if that's not the case. I'm not sure whether this one had a hidden serial number or whether my date estimate of 1870 (ca) was based on the riveted reeds and solid rosewood ends. At that time I didn't have as much knowledge about concertina dating as is available to all of us now, through online sharing of resources including Stephen's research, Neil Wayne's, etc. Also interesting to compare: https://www.concertinaconnection.com/wheatstone 19752.htm Hi Paul! You are absolutely correct about the reeds and the solid ends! Thanks for posting that amboyna model, which is very similar, though the brass corners are different. Based on all the feedback, it looks like your estimate is correct. I believe you told me you estimated it at 1860-1880, with 1870 being the midpoint, and I think you're correct. I searched the whole inside for a hidden serial number, but there's just a batch number. Of course, none of it matters. It's a nice piece that I'm thrilled to own, and Liam Clancy played it when I brought it with me to Ireland to stay a few days at his house.
Stephen Chambers Posted February 5 Posted February 5 (edited) 13 hours ago, pgroff said: Also worth mentioning is that this one has riveted reeds and solid (not laminated) rosewood ends ... Can I see the rivetted reeds/reedpans please? Both Wheatstone's (under Edward Chidley) and Lachenal's used them, but they're different. But externally, the details of both the fretwork and the bellows are distinctly Lachenal - so between 1848 and 1866 if they were made for Wheatstone's. And what does the Wheatstone label read? Edited February 5 by Stephen Chambers
mpcorbett Posted February 5 Author Posted February 5 10 minutes ago, Stephen Chambers said: Can I see the rivetted reeds/reedpans please? Both Wheatstone's (under Edward Chidley) and Lachenal's used them, but they're different. But externally, the details of both the fretwork and the bellows are distinctly Lachenal - so between 1848 and 1866 if they were made for Wheatstone's. And what does the Wheatstone label read? I'll try o get in and take some pictures tomorrow, thanks! I'll take a pic of the label, but it's the "her majesty's patent", 20 Conduit St/Regent St label
pgroff Posted February 5 Posted February 5 (edited) Would be good to see the action too, Michael! I have a feeling that if it were a Lachenal action I wouldn't have attributed it to Wheatstone, despite the label with which it arrived to me. I'm sorry I don't remember all the details and this came through my shop before I had a digital camera, or a computer for that matter. Thanks! Edited February 5 by pgroff
Stephen Chambers Posted February 5 Posted February 5 46 minutes ago, mpcorbett said: I'll take a pic of the label, but it's the "her majesty's patent", 20 Conduit St/Regent St label No need, you've answered my question - it's just that they tended to put West Street labels into instruments they'd later reconditioned/sold. Also, what is the batch number, and where is it stamped?
mpcorbett Posted February 5 Author Posted February 5 1 hour ago, Stephen Chambers said: No need, you've answered my question - it's just that they tended to put West Street labels into instruments they'd later reconditioned/sold. Also, what is the batch number, and where is it stamped? Yes, I just bought Wheatstone amboyna # 20030, formerly in the concertina museum, from Barleycorn, and it does have a West St. label on it from when they made a new bellows for it. It took a while to figure out why an instrument from 1882 had that label.
mpcorbett Posted February 6 Author Posted February 6 Here are photos. The batch number must be on the other end, and I didn't want to mess with both ends. 1
pgroff Posted February 6 Posted February 6 (edited) Thanks Michael! Riveted action, levers stamped (and/or filed) from flat brass stock, and buttons with wooden stems and metal caps, as I'd expect for a Wheatstone from that period. Stephen could tell us if the similar Lachenals had an action like this but I would not have identified this action as Lachenal (based on my smaller experience with 19th century english concertinas). Is it too late for you to pull out the reedpan and photo the underside? Might be a paper label there with information. If there's a stamped batch number you may see that on the inside edge of the bellows frames. Nice set of riveted reeds (missing a high D# I suppose to enable use of that button as an air key; if you need that note the Eb is available). Riveted reeds like those may not be the brightest in timbre but tend to sound very rich and sweet. Edited February 6 by pgroff
mpcorbett Posted February 6 Author Posted February 6 Cool! I already put it back together, but I took the reed pans out many years ago out of curiosity, and there was no label. If I get bored sometime, I'll give it another go. Yes you took the D# out for me as I wanted an air button. I do have those reeds. I prefer a warmer sound to a bright sound, so that's good. Of course, my new amboyna is a much better model than this one and has new valves, etc., so that's what I'll be playing, but I love having the older one as a museum piece, and, as I mentioned, it has sentimental memories attached to it.
pgroff Posted February 6 Posted February 6 (edited) Michael, this one from the Concertina Museum collection is interesting to compare. The action (described, not shown) sounds similar as well as the reeds. Lol just realized that you just bought this one! https://concertina.org/concertinas/wheatstone-20030-1882-cm00079/ Edited February 6 by pgroff
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