Selecting a finger pattern for phrases

[TimPiazza]

As I continue my first steps in Anglo for ITM, I've got questions, and this is an important one. As there are multiple ways of playing phrases, and speed is a consideration, particularly with reels, given a choice of a pattern that pulses with bellows direction changes and the same phrase with several notes in succession on the same bellows direction before changing direction for the next phrase, which is the more appropriate choice?

 

I know the obvious answer is "it depends". But beyond that, is selecting longer runs better for developing speed or should I learn to pulse more quickly?

[Michael Eskin]

Neither or both depending on what you're wanting to convey, and you might change it up each time.

Long runs on a push or draw have their own challenges in keeping the lift in the rhythm and require more attention to air management.  Rapid reversals have their own challenges at fast speeds to execute cleanly.

Since I'm guessing you're new(ish) to the instrument based on your previous posts, these kind of things will become clear with time and lots and lots of playing.

I'd focus on the basics of deciding on a baseline fingering system to use for the various scales (as different masters have different opinions, sometimes quite strong, on the matter) and not get too hung up on these kinds of distinctions so early in your journey.

Do you have an instructor to help you along the way?

 

Edited February 3 by Michael Eskin

[TimPiazza]

No instructor, Michael, just some familiarity with Irish trad. I know a fair number of tunes and play in sessions a couple times a month.

 

I am using OAIM.com to lead me somewhat, but I don't always agree with the fingerings as presented in the Concertina Basics course. I'm also trying to work out some of the more popular session tunes well enough to keep up with the pace.

 

What actually led me to ask this question was taking the concertina tab from the King Street Sessions on your website for Bucks of Oranmore and rewriting the fingerings to be able to play faster with a bit less push and pull in some regards and breaking up some extremely long runs on a draw. The algorithmic tab has some 16 notes on a draw at the beginning. My bellows doesn't stretch that far!

 

in any case, I usually find a few different ways to play a given phrase and while it's helping me  learn where to find the notes, I do want to work toward playing with intentional expression rather then just sounding like I can't wait to get to the end of the tune.

[TimPiazza]

18 minutes ago, TimPiazza said:

My bellows doesn't stretch that far!

Actually, what was unfair to say. My leaky Lachenal couldn't draw for that long, my Morse certainly can.

[Michael Eskin]

"I don't always agree with the fingerings as presented in the Concertina Basics course"

Hmm... I'm honestly not sure how to respond to that. 

As a new(ish) player of the instrument, you may not appreciate the full rationale behind an instructors fingering suggestion.

There certainly is value in exploring many ways of playing a series of notes, but generally I'll always go with a solution that:

1) Puts most of the work on the strongest fingers 
2) Never jumps a single finger between rows.

Here's that version of the Bucks of Oranmore from the King Street Sessions tunebook with C/G tab added in the cross-row style. 

A lot of those extended draws are because Michael Long wrote in ornamentation in his version.

I'd not play it as written, but I have no issue playing his version of the tune with the draws even at a slow(ish) speed.  

https://michaeleskin.com/abctools/abctools.html?def=eJztVs1u2kAQvu9TjCyhhAqp2AGVOKcmNFWU0FSQQ1U1shazBjdmF-2aRJEsjr2jvEB7aB-MJ-naMWZtQ0D8NYfext_MfjP7zYztLyYYVVQoYEqZj32XUYdRHz5jTz5QBnpZOn3X90gaNwyJi2E77aLPZ2rS50qiDFUF3Zg3PQLtoX0ngDlwzTHtM06y-NkUb5pNQjx0bV5wItk7JWjZzA8tVDdbPfYAvjx3hTsuEejUvD74RFzPOxCg68fHEmgyW_p1oHolfLwknEvnORtyvweD4xIM9BA_I8yDpkttAgZQo1JDLbPxCJjLOrqkT-QtHM76cI-5y4YChCSwZcav5o2MEDZ3B6FyJfVECewe4x1hNtw7WSKjXdQwz9CVqb-toUuzjgoud0XP4szzhMUoKuC2_V1Ykpt2IuEc7LfZo5SycVG_gAFnXY77UJ4CbSxECM6QKGEaCoPu5eWq6aAEEj52HEEGUCsjzdLLJ5MfT1pHsybjn9Ica6fBN3R4dKhZ1ejxveJJsCJo1rvIPE8wSCwjPPIrslO8a7IqgZWo2A-jxDLWIx3NaoWIQDknS38TkdszdYpBbI81Ekb8juDu1BxrziwW0qF5sn1IvS7ty1pr1lHkrSdYhuRJ-whK2mwCtUJVj6y0aT1HswBjvopSRiVHXONzY5MSkoJjd3G5iHnONTTbrLLtT-dyNV-xmNscQLTuBCoRidbBbbzJk_GfyImn5pPWVtAiLH9nZKqKuxOfCbaVJRFipNjG1uhfvsR0rBdOquTY4BL_W7H_Vsx5k8zAIEjWI787ClqEuUU-17h4R-MS8-scbJR19evt8265-dtt5_5R4_bTN5TJEW_VSLENyGxePnzvPbkNP9G1k_iTNkeCFVhzkcHGlPlCN6ScMzipjd6dwjuQd8Oerfwn-BoHesGf5u1fcH59yA&format=noten&ssp=10&name=The_bucks_of_Oranmore&play=1

A more basic version of the tune would not have so many consecutive draws and you'd decide for yourself where to add ornamentation on-the-fly, for example this one:

https://michaeleskin.com/abctools/abctools.html?def=eJzVVstOg0AU3c9X3EzSjTEdwDZWjAubqgs1PhduTIMttNUWGobGDWv3pD-gC_2wfokwgWEoEIqtFXdn7uNw75lTyoMqo1pNM03L0ZyRZRqW6cC1NvYPpgWyhO5VaM96LxQsA65szZxYtr4LzlBHdyoMHWdKVUL8I9Up9fvrlj0gzszUKVHQrQq2ro_RpQoN0kA3KshEOTpooosAtdC5Cp2J9mzZqEZfR-YApHowDXU0w6D6FFoSwt3m4eLNw8cK7u4zdMpDICYX3gfD_QC-M9h2C7p5Ie42fDDHJxwoRb3ikzmLLLHuvhtCD-tB_pNFBxH0sBGXglgaBbNJfTFafybGHkt2hGSCY47P4gnS_Mk54jWXVcqXJiMvkrpIeBafNQQKZCWFhcOYm1X2Y99wDuAkhNcRMRvdi0hN2C3usOoe-SVrcZ9USb4KOU3QN8ozpy28L3bSlHV_07lcPAwRnuOnFK-PlHyOgnkyVnYzd97Ai6t6iqX7lmBYkGTL64v129jLbclxYYWS1Ccekm-XyVGGYZUbKDvN1mxWSZmqa7Kcf9DEB8Tqd5KqdPknS0FhKV1LU27ZhWuuvCUV_5U7H78BZQMSBQ&format=noten&ssp=10&name=Bucks_of_Oranmore_the&play=1
 

[TimPiazza]

23 minutes ago, Michael Eskin said:

 

"I don't always agree with the fingerings as presented in the Concertina Basics course"

Hmm... I'm honestly not sure how to respond to that. 

 

In one of the first few "beginner" tunes, the instruction is to jump the same finger between rows, L10 to L5. My guess is the logic has to do with not wanting to extend beyond L5, L10, R1 and R6 so early in the course, though they did spice it up with a quick dip down to L3.

[TimPiazza]

This is the tab of Bucks of Oranmore I came up with, though I have not yet sorted out any trouble spots. I figured I would try learning it like this and see if it works.
 

 

Edited February 4 by TimPiazza

[TimPiazza]

1 hour ago, Michael Eskin said:

A more basic version of the tune would not have so many consecutive draws and you'd decide for yourself where to add ornamentation on-the-fly

Yes! I like this version as I can keep it clean until I'm more capable of adding ornaments. At a high octane session speed, it's enough to hit the notes and maybe add a triplet here and there. 

I see where I tended to choose L8 instead of L5 because it is easy to go between L7 and L8, perhaps mores for me than between L7 and L5, though I find myself using both interchangeably. 

This is helpful. Thank you.

 

[davidevr]

As Micheal said, different players, different styles, different ideas about fingering patterns.
And obviously no right or wrong 🙄

What I can tell you is, if you don't have a physical teacher nearby, and want certainties about fingerings, maybe the McNeela's Jack Talty course is for you. Jack learned from Noel Hill, and he gives you a very specific scheme with which you never wonder which finger to use. It's the first finger principle, I believe it is Noel  Hill's terms, but I was never lucky enough to have a lesson... It's basically what Micheal says, always privilege the strongest finger, try to play everything with your index and middle fingers, apart from low D and F; when possible of course, always avoiding jumping.

Having said that, this is just a theory on fingering. After finishing Jack's course, it was nice trying OAIM And Caitlin's course and seeing different ideas: for example, the push low D and pull high d, push high e get very little love in Jack's course, but Caitlin uses them all the time. Jack emphasizes a lot the use of the air button, other teachers relay more on choosing notes to alternate the bellows direction...  

All of this stuff will come naturally after a few years, so I would not worry. But if you do worry and want solid, logical rules, Jack Talty is your man

Edited February 4 by davidevr

[Michael Eskin]

18 hours ago, TimPiazza said:

This is the tab of Bucks of Oranmore I came up with, though I have not yet sorted out any trouble spots. I figured I would try learning it like this and see if it works.
 

 

While I haven't gone through the entirety of this, while I'm sure perfectly workable, I can see that  compared to the default fingering solution I use (learned from Noel Hill), you're putting a lot of work on a weaker (and potentially slower if you start adding ornaments later) finger by preferring the A and G on L8 instead of L5.  Of course there are times L8 might be necessary depending on the next or previous note but it would not be my first choice.
 

Edited February 4 by Michael Eskin

[TimPiazza]

2 hours ago, Michael Eskin said:

you're putting a lot of work on a weaker (and potentially slower if you start adding ornaments later) finger by preferring the A and G on L8 instead of L5

I am, and that is a consideration. I'm left-hand dominant and a mandolinist, so I have a strong and dexterous left. Keeping some of those runs on the G row feels more natural to me, but I will try it both ways. 👍🏻

[jgarber760]

I am in the same boat as Tim having started about the same time as he did and with a multi-decades run of playing trad music on stringed instruments. My tendency is to get distracted by too many tunes and an impatience to get to a higher level of playing than I am capable with this strange little contraption. So I figured to counteract my inclinations, I just stuck only to Caitlin's starter course which has already taught me some of the strategies of fingering on relatively simple tunes. I am more than 2/3 way through the tunes in this first course and am feeling more confident in playing a good handful of them using her fingerings. She is pretty clear that her way is only one of the highways not the only one but there is a method to her teaching. In any case, I know that at some point I will be on my own and already have experimented with some alternative fingerings.

[Michael Eskin]

When exploring alternative fingerings for a passage, it's worth asking "Why?".

Is it for efficiency of motion, necessary because of adjacent notes in a tune, a requirement of a specific ornament (for example, using the draw first octave G on the left side top row to allow for a draw right side DB cut, consonant with the G), or preference of specific timbre on the choice of notes?

For example, the draw 2nd octave C on the G row left side sounds different than the push C on the right side C row first button.   

The dynamics of what are possible for expression on a draw vs. push are not completely identical.

Don't assume that the choice of buttons are completely interchangeable just because they have the same pitch. 

It's easy for a new player to assume that all the duplicate notes are the same. 

They are not.

I think that the earlier one can appreciate this and make choices based on what sound you want to produce, not just what seems obvious at first, the better.

Each has it's own sound and own dynamics behavior based on draw vs. pull, reed pan location, concertina vs. accordion reed, etc.



 

Edited February 5 by Michael Eskin

[TimPiazza]

3 hours ago, Michael Eskin said:

Don't assume that the choice of buttons are completely interchangeable just because they have the same pitch. 

I definitely hear the differences in the reeds on the same note. I also know the sound is different from one side to the other based on how the instrument is positioned relative to my ears... or to a wall, for that matter. There will be a point when I will focus on the more subtle aspects of articulation, but I am still new at this. My main concern in asking questions is that I want to avoid any bad habits that will hinder me later on, and grasp how advanced players approach the instrument. These conversations certainly help with the latter.

 

At present I am putting in about 3 hours a day. More on some days. Part of the time is working slowly through tunes and deciding how I want to phrase them or insert variations when I practice, another part is practicing phrase patterns to lock them in and then a smaller part in building speed with "play alongs". One of my goals is to have a half dozen sets up to session speed.

[davidevr]

On the topic, I have a passion for rolls on the left-side pull G (accidental row), on my instrument they sound so much better that push G rolls on the middle row...

Maybe it's me, I haven't managed to produce decent-sounding push G rolls... YET 

 

Also, my inner row G/A button has a much darker sound than the middle row one, that also gives tunes a different colour.

Edited February 5 by davidevr