Best hybrid for ornamented ITM play: Ceili or Clare?

[Nanja]

Hello all, 

 

I'm wondering which hybrid is best in playing subtle, quick ITM ornamentation. Is there a clear "winner" in ease of ornamented play

between, say,  Ceili or Clare?  

 

thanks in advance, 
Nanja 

 

 

 

[Michael Eskin]

I have a couple of Edgley hybrid instruments, a older C/G and an A/E, and both are very fast, can keep up just fine with very rapid playing and ornamentation.

Edited December 1 by Michael Eskin

[PaulDa321]

I played the older 2017 Clare and the Ceili back to back.  I wish I had more time with the Ceili to really push the limits as it has a reputation for playing really fast.  I liked it and thought the air-efficiency was better, but I liked aspects of that Clare as the bellows had virtually no resistance (though they were older in this case).  The buttons are quite different, but you could get used to either.  If you could somehow buy them both used for the same price, there's some argument for the Ceili for resale because they don't make them anymore, but they're very sought-after.  I think most players would find them more similar than different.  I heard from one person that they liked the sound of the Clare better, but I didn't get enough time to judge that.  There's a lot of love for the Ceili in this forum and a lot of people don't sell them even when they get a traditional-reeded instrument.

[Ken_Coles]

In general, the reputable hybrid brands are suitable for this. The ones I've used firsthand and can vouch for include Morse Ceili, Norman, Tedrow, Edgley, and probably others I can't remember playing right now. If one were clearly superior the others would have all vanished from the market. Unfortunately, I can't improve on the old advice that trying them for yourself is the way to be sure, as individual preferences clearly vary. Good luck with the search.

 

Ken

[Nanja]

@PaulDa321, there’s indeed a lot of love for the Ceili, well earned of course.

But is there a also a reason why the Clare gets so little mention? do love the sound of the Clare in your video and wonder how easy it is to get the ornaments out.  Fast triplets and rolls, that stuff. Not necessarily playing tunes on topspeed (the ceili is great for that I think).
 

I’m a trad. harp player and know that some harps play ornaments so much easier than others, with lighter and different space strings. Might be the same with tina’s?

[PaulDa321]

I wonder about the lack of attention the ICC instruments get as well--something I'm always talking about on this forum.  Here's some thoughts I have based on what I've heard and experienced:

 

1.  ICC instruments are mostly well liked by their owners, though you don't tend to see them in fleadh videos or as a professional's main instrument.  I have to presume that there may be some difference between these and what you see (Suttner, Jeffries, 7mount, Carroll, Thomas, Dipper) when you reach that level?
2.  There are some mechanical drawbacks, which may or may not have any bearing on the playability for your average player.  One owner was disappointed with these elements and sought to change them, he found that making smaller buttons and changing the amount of play in one of the posts on a Vintage improved the action.  This wouldn't fully apply to the Clare as it uses a different-style post/fulcrum.  One user said that ICC is changing the future Vintage and Eiru to have the Clare's flat post fulcrum, which has less lateral play for the lever, so presumably an improvement.

3.  Regarding the Clare, they changed the design to have broader, shorter buttons than the earlier design, which was what I had.  I played these back to back and preferred mine for some reason, but I can see why people might prefer the newer one.

4.  One user owns an Eiru and a Suttner and finds them very similar when played back to back.

5.  The previous owner of my ICC Vintage thought that his Thomas was much more responsive.

 

Really across the board you tend to hear praise from people who have a Marcus, Norman, Clare, Ceili, Concertina Connection, and Edgley hybrids (off the top of my head).  I think your typical player in the market for a hybrid will be able to do what they need to do on any of them.  It's hard to ignore the availability of ICC instruments, especially when it comes to traditional-reeded.  Nobody else is cranking out traditionally-reeded instruments nearly as fast, as far as I can tell.  

 

I should also mention that Phoenix's have lots of quality control issues, though I think they play decently well--not really worth putting a lot of money into one.

 

 

[David Lay]

I know of one person who did not like the Eiru, however the criticisms were of its construction as compared to a traditional instrument.  When I look inside a Morse, I find many non-traditional details.  Still, the Morse concertinas are liked by many.  I believe it is a great challenge to make an affordable concertina and also stay in business.  I will guess that ICC and The Button Box both aimed to offer affordable instruments and so designed construction details that were less time consuming.  Their instruments are good and affordable compared to a traditionally made instrument.  I think it's amazing that Garvey can offer a concertina-reed instrument, his Eitru Silver, for 3300€ before VAT.

[Tiposx]

A few months ago I looked up the price for a set of Dix concertina reeds, and other sets of concertina reeds manufactured by Harmonicas. As I remember it, the expensive sets were about 5 to 6 times more expensive than the cheapest ones. But I was most surprised by the prices. The reeds made up a much lower percentage of the retail price of modern concertinas than I anticipated. 

Just an observation!

[PaulDa321]

@Nanja

I just remembered that there's this guy who made a youtube and instagram series of him playing ITM tunes on an older Clare.  He plays really fast--too fast for my taste really, but it shows how fast you can go.  I really appreciate that he recorded a ton of ITM tunes on the concertina despite getting very few views.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DGgfCSdM6uA/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

[Chris Ghent]

I have found the Ceili to be a terrific learner to medium concertina.
 

The problem with hybrids is they are typically owned and reviewed by less experienced players.  Occasionally you will see a big name player playing one for an Irish manufacturer in a video on Youtube but I have never seen one endorsing the brand verbally as well. The trouble is; this business/hobby is too small for constructive criticism.  
 

The player Paul mentions above is clearly struggling with the speed of the concertina.  

 

[Ken_Coles]

12 minutes ago, Chris Ghent said:

 

The problem with hybrids is they are typically owned and reviewed by less experienced players.  Occasionally you will see a big name player playing one for an Irish manufacturer in a video on Youtube but I have never seen one endorsing the brand verbally as well. The trouble is; this business/hobby is too small for constructive criticism.  

 

 

+1 to this.

 

A great player can play fast on almost anything. I have a recording of Noel Hill playing my first Stagi, a double-reed 20 button model, like lightning. (I'm sure he was working hard, but he smiled the whole time he was doing it, aware of what a great parlor trick it was.)

 

Ken

[Oberon]

I owned a ceili for a time in my concertina journey and ultimately sold it as I preferred being able to take reeds out for adjustment without needing to wax them out (and in).

 

That aside, I was very surprised by how intense the ceili can ornament. I'm not sure how to express that properly. That particular concertina had excellent response and 'attack', in a way that was different from many many other concertinas I played. Tone wise, it was closer to a concertina reed sound for an accordion reeded instrument 

 

The Clare sounded more like an accordion reed instrument than many other hybrids I'd played but maybe it was an older model at the time? A friend had it when it was brand new and I just wasn't that stoked about how it handled. I owned an AC Norman standard at the same specific point in time and I really enjoyed the Norman box significantly more. 

 

But it's all down to taste in the end! The vintage I tried was a marked improvement over the Clare, as I said recently in another thread, but again it's all down to the tastes of the player. 

 

I've gone through dozens of concertinas over the years trying to find the one that suit me best, and eventually ended up with a Kensington that is my favorite (rip Dana!), but nearly pulled the trigger on a silver Eiru at the time as well.

Edited Sunday at 01:45 PM by Oberon