English Fingering

[Steve Atl]

I have an old English Lachenal treble concertina. I bought an English "Jack" baritone concertina that had the same fingering as my treble. Later, I bought an English Stagi baritone concertina, thinking all baritones would have the same fingering. I've read about baritone-treble concertinas that have a different fingering patterns, but the Stagi concertina was advertised as a baritone. Turns out, the fingering was not the same.

 

How many fingering patterns are there?

[adamhuestis]

It could be a baritone-treble, which is a treble EC where extra notes extend the range downwards.

[juris]

5 hours ago, Steve Atl said:

I have an old English Lachenal treble concertina. I bought an English "Jack" baritone concertina that had the same fingering as my treble. Later, I bought an English Stagi baritone concertina, thinking all baritones would have the same fingering. I've read about baritone-treble concertinas that have a different fingering patterns, but the Stagi concertina was advertised as a baritone. Turns out, the fingering was not the same.

 

How many fingering patterns are there?

There is just one fingering pattern for all English concertina.

The treble is the same as the bass but for the octave difference. A tenor starts on a different note hence the pattern may seem different. I remember being initially confused by a Bastari tenor thinking the middle c lined up with the bottom of the thumb strap.

[Steve Atl]

A C scale on my treble starts on the second to low note in the left hand. It's the same for my Jack baritone. On the Stagi baritone a C scale started on a middle note somewhere in the right hand. I can see where you might say the pattern is the same, but the fingering is different. 

[juris]

Most unusual. I can't explain why the middle c isn't always in the left hand as I would have expected. The Bastari I tried, years ago,  while new in a Montreal accordion store, already had several buttons not working, not impressive for a floor model demonstrator. I have to admit, this is my only experience with a tenor concertina. 

[RatFace]

There are two possibilities, for standard instruments, really:

 

1. The instrument has the thumb straps in the "normal" location relative to the buttons. For example, on the left side, the front of the thumb strap aligns with "G#". 

• For a standard treble, that's the G# above middle-C (i.e., G#4) 
• For a standard baritone, it's still a G#, but an octave down - i.e., G#3

 

2. The instrument has the thumb straps offset relative to the "normal" location. For example, on the left side, the front of the thumb strap might now align with "C#"

• I don't think this normally happens with trebles (though some instruments may differ by a few mm, which can still feel weird!)
• It doesn't happen for most "extended" instruments either, so my tenor-treble doesn't have this offset.
• But some instruments do have this - for example, a baritone-treble might have so many buttons "below" the treble range that for balance reasons, the thumbstraps are shifted, as above (I think). Though some baritone-trebles don't have this shift.

 

I find this shift makes the instrument "almost unplayable", though I'm sure with a bit of time it would be OK. So I expect you have one of these.

If you wanted to change things, there would be two options:

1. Move the thumbstraps/pinkie rest. This is likely to be problematic as you'd need to ensure the ends can structurally support the new position.
2. You could swap a couple of reeds, which will make the instrument transpose a fifth/fourth (I forget which way).

The latter option is quite practical (at least - I've seen it done on traditional concertinas), and actually results in an instrument with quite a nice range - e.g. if you play guitar music on a baritone-treble that has been modified like this, it is as easy to play as on a tenor-treble, but it comes out slightly lower (i.e. in between the written pitch which can sound squeaky on a concertina, and the guitar pitch, which is of course a whole octave lower than written, but would sound rather growly on a concertina). 

 

 

 

 

[Johanna]

At NESI this year, there was a gorgeous cello-range EC on the "for sale" table, and I remember being similarly baffled by what notes were where.  I don't remember the details (maybe somebody else does), but it wasn't a baritone extended downward (i.e., middle C played by the right-hand middle finger), nor was it a treble extended 1 1/2 octaves downward (i.e., middle c played by the left-hand index finger).  It was something else entirely, and that's before you even get to the question of where the thumb straps were positioned (which I don't remember at all).

 

I know somebody bought it, and I hope they're having a wonderful time with it, but I had to pass on it myself, due to the unfortunate fact that I'd never be able to learn to play anything on it.  (I have a hard enough time training the muscle memory for the low notes on the tenor I already have.  I think I have to stick with standard trebles and baritones.)

[RatFace]

I guess somebody who was VERY evil may have set it up so that it both transposed (by something other than octaves) AND had the thumbstraps offset from the regular note positions!

[Steve Atl]

1 hour ago, RatFace said:

I guess somebody who was VERY evil may have set it up so that it both transposed (by something other than octaves) AND had the thumbstraps offset from the regular note positions!

Maybe it was meant for an Asian monkey, that had different thumbs and played a different scale.

[Matt Heumann]

22 hours ago, Steve Atl said:

I have an old English Lachenal treble concertina. I bought an English "Jack" baritone concertina that had the same fingering as my treble. Later, I bought an English Stagi baritone concertina, thinking all baritones would have the same fingering. I've read about baritone-treble concertinas that have a different fingering patterns, but the Stagi concertina was advertised as a baritone. Turns out, the fingering was not the same.

 

How many fingering patterns are there?

First of all, a lachenal treble or baritone will usually have 18 more buttons than a JACK, so I wouldn't expect things to line up exactly the same. Also the Italian-made instruments have always seemed to me to have a different spacing regardless of the number of buttons (perhaps a result of the accordion-like internal mechanisms). English-made trebles & baritones finger the same positions just an octave apart. I don't think the same is true for baritone-trebles. Both my 56-button Edeophone baritone and my 58-button Aeola baritone have the same fingering positions as any of my English trebles (C# in identical position next to thumb loop)).

[John Wild]

2 hours ago, Matthew Heumann said:

English-made trebles & baritones finger the same positions just an octave apart. I don't think the same is true for baritone-trebles.

My baritone-treble has the same fingering as a standard treble - IF you start following the pattern from the top end of the range. It then extends down to the baritone range. For that part of its range, the notes are on the opposite side when compared to a standard baritone. The pattern of  standard baritone is the same as a treble but exactly one octave lower, as I believe has been stated earlier.

[RatFace]

I tried Vincent Powell's Baritone treble a little while ago. It had the thumbs straps offset from the regular note positions (by approximately one position/row/whatever) which made it really hard for me to play. The psychological effect is definitely more "this is a completely different system" than "I just need to shift my fingers a bit"!