Irish traditional speed

[Marcus]

Good morning all!

I was driving into work this morning listening to a mix of tunes and I began to wonder when it became fashionable to play Irish trad at such a breakneck pace? Kitty Hayes was in my mix and she was playing reels at a much more enjoyable pace. I enjoy the technical prowess of the high speed playing but something gets lost I feel. Maybe somebody knows when the shift happened. 

[Peter Laban]

It's the old discussion, isn't it.

 

Time and place, context, all that stuff. 

Dancers will generally want more speed than people playing on their own for their own amusement. The young will play often faster than the older. That sort of thing.

 

Wasn't it it Garrett Barry who said his music was for the heart, not the feet ?

 

But it was Frankie Gavin who said 'it's dance music, why would you want to play it slow?'

 

Horses for courses I suppose.

 

Listen to Gavin's sources, James Morrison and the other 78 rpm era fiddlers. Speed is nothing new.

 

Irish music is a broad church catering for a variety of tastes and approaches.

 

 

 

Re Kitty Hayes. Bear in mind she was in her late seventies, had  a not particularly nice concertina and had not played for fifty years when she cane back to it  at seventy.

 

I remember one occasion where we had to play for a benefit concert, the organisers thought it would be a good idea if we played for a young girl doing a brush dance. We had the girl and her mother come to Kitty's house for a 'practice'. She wanted the Bucks. She could not dance to our music and as a typical twelve year old was disgusted Kitty didn't play up to the speed she wanted to do her dance at. 

 

Which was fine,  we did our spot at the concert and the young one had someone else play for her steps.

 

 

Edited October 8 by Peter Laban

[Ryan Galamb]

Regarding dance speed, it depends. I've found that it takes a lot of effort for a session to play hornpipes slow enough to dance to. As one of the regulars likes to remind us, "Think of those poor little girls on stage dancing their feet off!"

 

It didn't really click with me until I was playing a slow hornpipe during a sound check, and a Irish dancer who happened to be passing by started dancing along. (So if you care about dancers, my advice would be to watch how they dance to different types of tune.)

 

That said, I know many Irish musicians who don't give a hoot about the dancers and are just gonna play whatever feels good to them. (And more power to them! It'd be sad/boring if the whole genre were beholden to a single aspect.)

 

I think both slow and fast are good. IMO most tunes don't become inferior/superior played at different tempos. They just become different. It's fun to play a hornpipe as a reel or vice versa.

[Peter Laban]

19 minutes ago, Ryan Galamb said:

Regarding dance speed, it depends. I've found that it takes a lot of effort for a session to play hornpipes slow enough to dance to

It ofcourse depends on the type of dance you are playing for. Competitive step dancers will want to get all their fancy, elaboarate steps in and want an excruciatingly slow hornpipe for that.  But when  playing for set dancers, eg the last figure of the Caledonian set, the dancers will want you to play at a fair  clip.

 

 Fwiw, I never understood 'playing a hornpipe as a reel'. They are different types of tunes and have very different structures. Playing them faster or slower doesn't change that.

Edited October 8 by Peter Laban

[Ryan Galamb]

7 minutes ago, Peter Laban said:

Fwiw, I never understood 'playing a hornpipe as a reel'. They are different types of tunes and have very different structures. Playing them faster or slower doesn't change that.

In my neck of the woods, many of the Irish trad musicians also play bluegrass. Some Irish trad tunes are also bluegrass standards. The session I frequent doesn't usually do hornpipes as reels, but I've noticed the bluegrass crossover tunes will get used as reels.

 

For example, we'll sometimes throw Fisher's Hornpipe into a reel set, and it sounds pretty good. (I prefer it as a hornpipe, personally, but it's a fun tune no matter how you slice it.)

 

I agree that not all hornpipes/reels should be played as each other. That's more a matter of emphasis/meter than tempo, as I understand. I'll have to pay more attention next time someone sneaks a hornpipe into a reel set. I wonder if everyone unconsciously changes the emphasis to match the hornpipe or if they truly are playing it as a reel.

[Peter Laban]

I know it's a bluegrass thing. 

 

I am in a different 'neck of the woods' or perhaps I lead a sheltered life. But never mind, I was just thinking out loud. Sorry for the distraction . 

Talk about speed.

Edited October 8 by Peter Laban

[Marcus]

I hear what you’re saying regarding playing for dancers. I guess when playing for pleasure and in small groups the speed becomes less important. 

[PaulDa321]

I like to think a lot about “pulse” or how the rhythm is expressed/emphasized.  If somebody is playing fast and it just sounds like a jumble of notes, it’s probably because I can’t get the pulse from what they’re playing. My brain has nothing to latch onto—like a paragraph with no spaces or punctuation.  Whether it’s played fast or slow, a big part of my enjoyment is whether or not I can feel the pulse in what they’re playing.  I can’t play particularly fast myself, so the least I can do is try to emphasize the rhythm so that others can connect with the tune.  That’s my hope anyways. 

[Lawrence Reeves]

I feel that there are diverse speeds for different things. Sure some play fast because they can, others chop tunes to bits. Leaving the phrasing to be completely non danceable. I suggest for comparison watch a great sean nós dancer and the tempo vs a set dance performance. The more advanced the dancer, the more ornamentation they provide meaning the music can be more relaxed. Some sessions can go way too fast in my opinion, but obviously the players are in their own groove world. Start playing with lower pitched instruments such as a C B or Bb session, and the speed usually comes back to gentle swinging rhythm.

[gcoover]

And then there are some whose only goal is to play at breakneck speed, regardless of whether it sounds musical or not, thinking it makes them the best musicians.

 

Who was it that said: "You should never use the tune to show off your skills - use your skills to show off the tune"?

 

Gary

[Alex West]

19 hours ago, Peter Laban said:

Dancers will generally want more speed than people playing on their own for their own amusement. The young will play often faster than the older

It's almost the opposite in English dances and in a lot of Scottish dances.  If you play the tunes too fast, it's impossible to dance and get all the steps in so it becomes a fast walk or run.  In the dances we played for in the 1970s and '80s, there was a move away from faster paced playing which had become common, towards much slower tempos where dancers could show off their stepping.  I found the same when I moved to Scotland.  The older musicians particularly (conditioned to a certain extent by the strict instructions as to tempo of the RSCDS) played at a very steady pace and decried some of the younger musicians whose habit was to play fast in order to show off their pyrotechnics.

 

Many of the musicians who came from dancing to the concert stage found that they played fast in order to bring a degree of excitement to a listening rather than a dancing audience.  Younger musicians coming from the university music courses have copied this before their skills are fully developed so that the tune and its relevance gets lost in a rush of notes.

 

All above in my opinion - others will have different views

 

Alex West 

[Richard Mellish]

One link in the "jukebox" accompanying the latest ICA newsletter is of respected Irish concertina player, Mary McNamara, allowing plenty of time for the tune;

 

[Peter Laban]

1 hour ago, Richard Mellish said:

One link in the "jukebox" accompanying the latest ICA newsletter is of respected Irish concertina player, Mary McNamara, allowing plenty of time for the tune

 

But did you ever hear her play for a set?   As I said, horses for courses. musicians wear different hats for different circumstances.

 

Here's a little example of her playing polkas  with Brendan Begley (with dancers coming in for the finale):

 

Begley & Mac - polkas  (I'll leave that up for a few days)

 

 

 

I was going to post this as an example of a set, but got into replying to Richard's post. Anyhow, here it is anyway:

 

 

 

 

Edited October 9 by Peter Laban

[RAc]

2 hours ago, Alex West said:

It's almost the opposite in English dances and in a lot of Scottish dances.  If you play the tunes too fast, it's impossible to dance and get all the steps in so it becomes a fast walk or run. 

Thanks Alex, to me your post appears to be one of the few that addresses the TOs question - pretty much everybody else jumped in on the endless moral/philosophical discussions about how authentic/desirable/musical fast tempo is or ought to be. Pointless discussion, as Peter Laban never tires to point out.

 

The only addition/remark I have is that from my limited understanding (I regularly play for both English and Scottish country dancers, but in Germany which may or may not be overly authentic), a number of Scottish dance tunes must be played at a fairly demanding minimal speed as this is required by the dances - some of the basic dance figures include hops and jumps, and if you play the tunes too slow, you require the dancers to jump higher in order to catch up with a slower rendition. So you as a musician actually make a dancer's life easier when playing faster. Combined with what you correctly point out above, this leaves a certain window of possible tempos which the musicians should not leave at either end.

 

In English country dancing, this is very different because most dances (leaving Morris aside which is a completly different culture) do not enforce such requirements (of course there is nothing that prevents dancers and musicians from move up to faster speeds, but also nothing that requires that). As a corollary, musicians with skills below trained lifelong experience (or compatible skills) can and are welcome to participate in "everyday dance music."

 

Iam not familiar with Irish dancing, so hopefully someone else will jumpo in and elaborate on how flexible Irish dancers are with respect to dance music tempos.

 

Edited October 9 by RAc

[Marcus]

I do tend to forget that most of the music is essentially for dancing. Living in Bermuda there isn’t a scene for traditional music and I only found it by chance. A visit to sidmouth many years ago introduced me to the concertina but it wasn’t long before I heard Irish music which I seem to have settled into. I still play a few harmonic style tunes but tend to play Irish tunes mainly. I never get the chance to play for dancers and I’m sure it would decide the tempo. 

[davidevr]

Being a beginner, for me it's either speed or pulse...

But for great players playing faster does not mean losing pulse. The likes of Frankie Gavin, Matt Molloy but even (talking about the concertina) Cormac Begley or Noel Hill: when they play fast their music has still plenty of pulse.

So I guess this is mostly a problem for us poor beginners; it's better to play slower and get the pulse than play faster...

But for those people speed is just a stylistic choice, and they often choose to go fast

Edited October 9 by davidevr

[Alex West]

 

3 hours ago, Marcus said:

I do tend to forget that most of the music is essentially for dancing.

Not all music is for dancing, but a lot of the traditional forms - jig, reel, polka, hornpipe - have their origins in a dance and if you're playing for dancing, it's worthwhile getting the tempo and pulse right so the dancers are assisted in doing the dance in some sort of proper rhythm.  Think of the subtle but obvious difference between a Viennese waltz and a traditional waltz if you want that example.

 

I can't speak for Irish dance but certainly in Scotland, there's a larger distinction of tunes with a purpose; as well as the above usual suspects, strathspey, schottishe, barn dance, two step, 3-step, 2/4 pipe march, 6/8 pipe march.  Get the rhythm wrong and you're in trouble.  Allow the dancers to dictate the pace and you'll be fine.  As Scan Tester said - watch for the best dancer in the room and play for them.

 

26 minutes ago, davidevr said:

But for those people speed is just a stylistic choice, and they often choose to go fast

As long as you're not playing the music for a purpose other than your own amusement or for people to listen to and tap their feet, you can play at any speed you like.  It's still worth playing at a speed where your own technique allows the value and weight of each note to be appreciated.  I'm probably misquoting him, but Mohsen Amini - who has a phenomenal technique - said in an interview I heard that if he had a choice between technique (or musical purity - I forget the actual comparator) and excitement or energy, he chose excitement every time.  And his audiences certainly seem to appreciate his choice. (Although he did say in the same interview that "We're just musical clowns really").

 

Alex West

[Matthew Heumann]

5 hours ago, Alex West said:

 

Mohsen Amini - who has a phenomenal technique - said in an interview I heard that if he had a choice between technique (or musical purity - I forget the actual comparator) and excitement or energy, he chose excitement every time.  

 

 

He is a technical master! But can anyone play along with him? He came to the Squeeze-In one year, but I don't remember if he sat in on any sessions. I played in Irish sessions for almost 20 years with very advanced older Irish players, then dropped out. When I returned 20 years later to try sessions again, not only were all the tunes different, but these kids were playing 4x faster then any session I'd ever attended. Having played with members of Boys of the Lough, De Danaan, and others, I was totally unprepared for the over-the-top style-ferocity of the newer young players, so I went back to playing by myself or with a few friends. Its all in the EAR of the beholder.