Considering an upgrade from Hayden Elise

[klaustukast]

I’ve been on a Hayden Elise for about 4 months now. Progress has been pretty smooth—the Hayden layout just clicks for scales with no or one accidental. Major/minor chords are easy and I love being able to back myself up. Hardest part so far has been training my left hand (funny enough, I’m left-handed but play guitar right-handed). I've been mainly playing and singing some sea shanties (Drunken sailor, Wellerman, Spanish ladies, Leave Her Johnny), some video game music and some rock songs covers. While not the point of this post perhaps someone has folk song suggestions that would be playable on the Elise? I've been wanting to try out new genres and genres I don't usually listen to. 

Now the main point: I kinda want to upgrade my Elise. I find it annoying to constantly transpose everything to C or D minor (or G, F Amin) Fine for folk and shanties, but restrictive if I want to branch out. And I’ve run into problems when playing with friends who don’t transpose. Missing accidentals are also an issue, and I’d prefer a fully chromatic concertina in case i want to try wide variety of music genres (i did find a video game song that I couldn't play and I feel like some more might pop up the more I play). I’ve only run out of range once, but that’s less of a problem for now.

As far as I know, there aren’t many makers of new Hayden duets (only peacock and troubadour from CC?), and not many older ones come up for sale. Because of this, I’m thinking about switching to a different duet system because there are more older instruments available. From what I understand, both Crane and Maccann can achieve similar results, but I think I’d prefer the Crane - it seems less of a fight to get started due to its more regular pattern compared to the Maccann layout (even if its not isomorphic like Hayden). 
Is it worth getting an old Crane from Barleycorn? What should I watch out for when buying? How much care/maintenance do they usually need? Would an old Crane (or an old concertina in general) handle “soft” camping trips (car camping, campfires, nothing extreme like rain or freezing temperatures)?
I’m planning to stick with my Elise for at least this year, but I’d like to keep an eye out for an upgrade because it might take a while for a good duet to appear. I’ve got around €2,000 saved and am okay with a mid-range instrument - I’m not a pro, and I’d worry about risking a high-end concertina on the road or at a friends house. And I'm totally fine with sticking to Hayden system, but I think I can get a better Crane for a similar price. Or should I hold out for a larger Hayden instead?

[David Barnert]

As you’ve noticed, the problem with Haydens is that the system is too new. There are no old ones, and for the most part, everybody that ever owned one is still alive (I have known three who aren’t, but their concertinas are accounted for).

 

The only folks I know of actually making concertina-reeded Haydens are Steve Dickinson (Wheatstone), Wim Wakker (Concertina Connection) and Alex Holden, and they would all involve large prices and multi-year wait times if they are even currently taking orders.

 

I would avoid any temptation to get a Stagi unless you find a used one for sale and can try it first. Even then, they are not great instruments. Perhaps the thing to do is to take advantage of Concertina Connection’s trade-in policy and wait for a Troubadour or a Peacock.

 

I have no experience with Cranes or Maccanns and cannot speak to that possibility.

[klaustukast]

Hi, thanks for the response. I was actually planning on getting a Stagi before I bought my Elise, but I saw a lot of complaints about the current maker here (and someone at Red Cow Music told me they were discontinued). Since I’m in Europe, I also wouldn’t really save much with CC’s trade-in policy once shipping and customs are added.

Do you know if there are any members here with good experience on Cranes who wouldn’t mind me messaging them with a few questions?

[David Barnert]

52 minutes ago, klaustukast said:

Do you know if there are any members here with good experience on Cranes who wouldn’t mind me messaging them with a few questions?

 

No, sorry. The only Crane player I ever knew was @Kurt Braun, and he died a few years ago (and no, I don’t know the fate of his concertina).

[RAc]

I am a Crane player, and I am also in Europe. Feel free to pm me if you have questions.

[Daniel Hersh]

I play Crane, having switched from Hayden to Crane several years ago for the same reasons that you are considering.  (I have also played Anglo since before I started on either Hayden or Crane.)  Unless your questions are confidential, I'd suggest you post them here so both RAc and I and possibly other Crane players can answer them and respond to each other.  But I'm also willing to respond to pm messages if that's your preference - you could include both RAc in the same pm thread. 

[Anglo-Irishman]

As Daniel said, the best way to glean information is to post to the forum, rather than PM-ing the presumed Crane players individually. 

I'm also a Crane owner, although my main squeeze is the Anglo, so I have some experience of learning to play the Crane after playing a different system. I'd be glad to help, if I can!

Cheers,

John

[klaustukast]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I was being a bit impatient and thought no one else was going to reply. The questions aren’t confidential, so I can definitely ask them here.
Main ones from before:
Is it worth getting an old Crane from Barleycorn or somewhere else?
What should I watch out for when buying ?
How much care/maintenance do they usually need?
Would an old Crane (or an old concertina in general) handle “soft” camping trips (car camping, campfires, nothing extreme like rain or freezing temperatures)?"
And some extra ones: 

Are there any good Crane resources online? I know how to finger chords and play scales, but some visual cheat sheets would be nice since the layout isn’t isomorphic like the Hayden.

Most Cranes I see for sale are 48-button. My hands are on the smaller side—would that be an issue for reaching the outer rows, especially on the right hand? (I attached a photo of my hand on my concertina in case it helps.)

What about weight? Are Cranes noticeably heavier than the Elise, and does that affect playing comfort?

If a Crane needs maintenance from time to time, how hard is it to do myself? I’m not afraid of taking it apart (my job involves assembling, aligning, and testing high-tech devices), but it would be useful to know what the most common maintenance issues are and whether there are any guides or books that cover this.

What would people's opinions be on this concertina ? https://concertina.co.uk/stock-selection/duet-concertinas/wheatstone-48-key-crane-8954/ 
Or the one RAc was/is selling ?

  

[RAc]

Hi Klaus, I am afraid that my Crane does not fit your bill. I would never take it out on a camping trip - too valuable, too bulky, too heavy and not suitable for beginners (the general rule for beginning Crane players is - the fewer rows the better as all of the rows are uniformly spaced, and it is very easy to jump to a wrong row).

 

I believe it is still safe to buy from Barlecorn.

 

Maintenance is exactly the same as with all vintage concertinas - get a copy of Dave Elliot's book and be prepared to take the box apart every once in a while.

Edited October 5, 2025 by RAc

[alex_holden]

12 hours ago, klaustukast said:

What about weight? Are Cranes noticeably heavier than the Elise, and does that affect playing comfort?

 

Google says an Elise is 1.4Kg. I would expect a 48 button Crane to be similar or maybe slightly heavier.

 

12 hours ago, klaustukast said:

Is it worth getting an old Crane

 

I think it's a good idea. You can buy one with traditional reeds and construction off the shelf, and if you like it there are options to upgrade to larger/better quality ones later. Personally I find the Crane system fairly logical.

 

12 hours ago, klaustukast said:

What should I watch out for when buying ?

 

Things like: poor quality/damaged reeds (inefficient, slow to start, breathy, pitch-unstable); structural cracks in the woodwork; leaky or stiff bellows; worn action levers; previous bad repairs that would be difficult to rectify properly. If possible ask to look inside and check both sides of the reed pans: if they won't show you, what are they hiding?

 

12 hours ago, klaustukast said:

If a Crane needs maintenance from time to time, how hard is it to do myself? I’m not afraid of taking it apart (my job involves assembling, aligning, and testing high-tech devices), but it would be useful to know what the most common maintenance issues are and whether there are any guides or books that cover this.

 

If it's already in good condition to start with, the most common issues that arise in regular use are relatively simple to fix like lint caught in a reed; reed frames too loose or tight due to humidity changes; curled valves; sticking buttons. David Elliott's Concertina Maintenance Manual is a useful resource, or you can always ask for help on here. 

 

12 hours ago, klaustukast said:

Would an old Crane (or an old concertina in general) handle “soft” camping trips (car camping, campfires, nothing extreme like rain or freezing temperatures)?"

 

Probably if you're sensible. It might be worth considering getting something like a "Peli" travel case. Avoid leaving it somewhere hot (e.g. a car boot on a sunny day), and avoid getting it cold and then immediately playing it in a warm humid environment without letting it gradually warm up first because that causes internal condensation.

 

12 hours ago, klaustukast said:

What would people's opinions be on this concertina ? https://concertina.co.uk/stock-selection/duet-concertinas/wheatstone-48-key-crane-8954/ 

 

It doesn't look like a high-end model, but that might be a benefit if you're taking it camping. A slight oddity I noticed with that one: it looks like the hand rails have been turned round so the bass notes are on the right side. It would probably be easy to swap them back.

 

12 hours ago, klaustukast said:

How much care/maintenance do they usually need?

 

Some. It's a vintage hand-made instrument with lots of moving parts so things go wrong occasionally but they are quite reliable if you look after them and play them regularly.

[Little John]

On 10/4/2025 at 6:16 PM, klaustukast said:

Most Cranes I see for sale are 48-button. My hands are on the smaller side—would that be an issue for reaching the outer rows, especially on the right hand?

 

I am a Crane player with small hands. A 48-button should be fine. Provided you don't have the straps too tight and are resting one end on a knee it's easy to slide your hand forward a bit to reach those further out buttons.

 

Notwithstanding the stretch (and additional weight) involved with larger Cranes, a 48 button instrument is really enough for most purposes: the right hand side has sufficient range for most melodies and the left hand side has all the buttons needed to form any chord you might wish.

 

Personally I have usually made slight modifications to my Cranes, the most useful of which is to re-purpose the lowest C# on the LHS to a B (for dance music) or a Bb (for songs). Or both - one on push and one on pull!

 

Having owned in my time everything from 35 to 55 button Cranes, I now play custom 44 and 45 button Cranes made by @alex_holden.

Edited October 5, 2025 by Little John
"had" to "has"

[RAc]

oh and btw - if you seriously consider the Crane, there are two things you can and should do:

 

1. print out a keyboard layout and try to "dry play" a few tunes on paper. The horizontal spacing between columns is about 16mms, the vertical spacing between rows about 11mms. The vertical offset between the columns differs between manufacturers and layout types, but if you start out with 1/2 (ie 5.5mms) that will be fair enough for the paper test.

2. Read this (Kurts pdf, not the thread, and very thoroughly): 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2025 by RAc

[Daniel Hersh]

A 48-key should be fine.  That's what I have (mine is a rosewood-ended Lachenal) and it can do almost everything I want it to do.  I sometimes wish the bass side notes went a bit higher, but it hasn't bothered me enough to have upgraded to a 55-key.

 

I think a vintage concertina is the right way to go for a Crane, and Barleycorn is a good dealer.  If I were buying from them, I would want to make sure to get an instrument with responsive reeds - I think they will be honest with you about that if you ask about it.  Lachenals in particular vary quite a bit in responsiveness, even within each Lachenal line (mahogany, rosewood, metal-ended etc.)

 

With any concertina that has concertina-type reeds, you will probably have to occasionally open it up to clear tiny bits of dust out of a non-sounding reed.  You get used to this once you've done it a few times.  If you're lucky, you won't have to do any other maintenance yourself, especially if you buy a restored concertina that has recently had its valves and pads replaced.

 

I know of two old Crane instruction methods available as free PDFs online:

http://www.concertina.com/crane-duet/Wilton-Bulstrode-Crane-Tutor.pdf
https://www.concertina.info/tina.faq/images/Salvation_Army_Tutor_For_Triumph_Concertina_2nd_ed.pdf

 

Edited October 5, 2025 by Daniel Hersh

[Daniel Hersh]

On 10/4/2025 at 10:16 AM, klaustukast said:

What would people's opinions be on this concertina ? https://concertina.co.uk/stock-selection/duet-concertinas/wheatstone-48-key-crane-8954/ 

 

As Alex said, it doesn't look like a higher-end model, but Wheatstone (depending on the date of manufacture) is often a very good make.  Serial number looks to me like 33494.  If so, I believe it's on this page of the Wheatstone ledgers: http://www.horniman.info/DKNSARC/SD02/PAGES/D2P1500L.HTM which dates it to 1934.  As Barleycorn says, that's not Wheatstone's top period, but I would add that it's still a pretty good period, and a significantly better period for Wheatstone than post-World War 2. 

[klaustukast]

I’ll check it out when I have the time, RAc. Thanks everyone for all the advice and insight — it’s been really helpful. Probably my last question for now: how important is having an air button on a Crane?

[Little John]

51 minutes ago, klaustukast said:

how important is having an air button on a Crane?

 

On an anglo an air button is essential because you can run out of air on some musical phrases if you don't take a gasp when the opportunity arises. That problem doesn't arise on English and duet concertinas. I use my air button only for opening the bellows at the start of playing and closing them at the end. Nice to have, but not essential.

[Clive Thorne]

Just a wild thought:

 

They button layout (Not the note layout) on a Maccann duet is not vastly different from the layout on a Hayden. With new ends, a bit of lever rerouting and/or moving reeds around would it be possible convert a Macann to a Hayden button and note layout?

 

Could give a much better quality Hayden at a much reduced cost and lead time than a new build?

 

I know that at least one person here has converted a Macann duet to an Anglo.

 

As I say, just a wild thought.

[Rphil]

As a Crane player who also started on a Hayden, I totally get where you’re coming from. The Elise is great for getting started, but once you want full chromatic freedom or to play with other musicians, the missing accidentals become a real limitation. For your budget, a good vintage Crane from Barleycorn is honestly a solid step up you’ll get a better-built, more capable instrument than most mid-range Haydens, and the layout is regular enough that the transition isn’t too painful. I’ve taken my Crane to plenty of gigs and sessions, and it’s held up well; they don’t need a ton of maintenance beyond normal tuning and valve/pad refreshes every so often.

As for durability, an old Crane will handle “soft” camping trips just fine as long as you keep it dry and avoid temperature extremes. I travel with mine a lot, and I keep it nestled in tool box foam inserts inside the case so it doesn’t bounce around  works brilliantly. If you’re happy sticking with Hayden you can wait for a larger one, but if you want something chromatic and available now, a vintage Crane is definitely worth keeping an eye out for.