c minor/g minor anglo layout

[Cathasach]

So, I have decided to convert my Trinity College(Amazon anglo) concertina to minor keys. Obviously, the diatonic rows are easy, I'll just flat a few of the reeds and be done, but I'm not sure what should be on the accidentals, any suggestions?

[Kevin Knippa]

If you flatten reeds on the middle and inside rows then perhaps you should sharpen the reeds on the outside row that correspond to the new flattened reeds. For example, if you flatten E on the middle row or inside row, sharpen the D#s on the outside row up to E nat so you can stlil play in major keys and their mode

 

When you say you want to tune to minor keys are you wanting to be able to play melodic minor, natural minor, or harmonic minor scales on the middle and inside rows, or just have flatted thirds in certain keys?.

Edited Friday at 06:54 PM by Kevin Knippa

[Richard Mellish]

I had a G minor / D minor concertina built for me. Choosing exactly which of the usual notes to flatten and which others to change was not straightforward and I sometimes wonder whether one or two further changes might be beneficial. I wanted it mainly for Swedish tunes, which tend to have the third and sixth flattened and the seventh sometimes flattened but mostly not, so a blend of natural and harmonic minors. Some tunes have even more variability: for example one in G minorish has the seventh (F) always sharp but the fourth (C) sometimes natural and sometimes sharp. I find that some tunes defeat me entirely.

[Chris Ghent]

Richard, it would be interesting to hear that. Any videos?

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I am just curious to know what advantage there is to retuning to more remote keys?

Give or take a few notes., you can play in nearly any key on a more chromatic instrument as it is.

Not a criticism..just interested to know the advantage.🌝

[Richard Mellish]

4 hours ago, Chris Ghent said:

Richard, it would be interesting to hear that. Any videos?

Nothing to offer right now. Maybe sooner or later.

[Richard Mellish]

2 hours ago, SIMON GABRIELOW said:

I am just curious to know what advantage there is to retuning to more remote keys?

Give or take a few notes., you can play in nearly any key on a more chromatic instrument as it is.

Not a criticism..just interested to know the advantage.🌝

A diatonic instrument is inherently easiest to play in its basic key(s). If you want a different key, life is simpler if you can switch to an instrument that has that key as one of its basic keys. The same applies to changing from major to minor, though as mentioned above there is the complication of exactly which notes you want flattened, and when.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I would leave it as it is then😊..and not get overcomplicated with retuning!

[Cathasach]

On 7/5/2025 at 2:22 AM, SIMON GABRIELOW said:

I am just curious to know what advantage there is to retuning to more remote keys?

Give or take a few notes., you can play in nearly any key on a more chromatic instrument as it is.

Not a criticism..just interested to know the advantage.🌝

The main benefit is that I don't know how to play chromotic instruments!

 

More seriously, I've been playing more and more in minor keys and the anglo is really the only instrument I know so if I want to play with chords without some rather absurd fingering combos it will be a lot better.

 

It's also a project for learning tuning, which is really more why I'm doing it.

 

This is the layout I have so far. Not sure if I want to switch the A3 to an Ab3 and maybe flip the C#s and Es? 

On 7/4/2025 at 11:21 PM, Richard Mellish said:

I had a G minor / D minor concertina built for me. Choosing exactly which of the usual notes to flatten and which others to change was not straightforward and I sometimes wonder whether one or two further changes might be beneficial. I wanted it mainly for Swedish tunes, which tend to have the third and sixth flattened and the seventh sometimes flattened but mostly not, so a blend of natural and harmonic minors. Some tunes have even more variability: for example one in G minorish has the seventh (F) always sharp but the fourth (C) sometimes natural and sometimes sharp. I find that some tunes defeat me entirely.

Can you share your layout?

 

Here's mine so far:

[Cathasach]

On 7/4/2025 at 11:49 AM, Kevin Knippa said:

If you flatten reeds on the middle and inside rows then perhaps you should sharpen the reeds on the outside row that correspond to the new flattened reeds. For example, if you flatten E on the middle row or inside row, sharpen the D#s on the outside row up to E nat so you can stlil play in major keys and their mode

 

When you say you want to tune to minor keys are you wanting to be able to play melodic minor, natural minor, or harmonic minor scales on the middle and inside rows, or just have flatted thirds in certain keys?.

I was only thinking of the natural, but the harmonic should be easy enough to play as well since I have B3, B4 and B5[forgot to remove the flat.] on the pull. Everything I play now is natural, but I think that's just because that's the only one I know and I don't play the stuff that doesn't sound good in the natural.

[Cathasach]

Updated version

 

[Doug Barr]

g min is easy in the standard layout! One of my favorite keys.

[caj]

Pardon my ignorance on this matter, but isn't a diatonic layout already a minor key?  

 

I mean, we think of a C/G anglo as being in Cmaj/Gmaj, but it's also in Dmin/Amin (or rather, Ddor/Ador).  Likewise, a D whistle is also an Edor whistle.

 

If someone wanted to play a lot in G minor, could they do so with a standard Anglo in Bb/F?

 

 

[Clive Thorne]

I would have thought that a standard 30 key anglo (quick web search suggests it will be) then it/you should be quite capable of playing in some minor keys already but obviously these will to deviate from the standard push/pull patterns

As pointed out natural Am & Dm are there on the main two rows already. For other minors you would need to use the third row,  might need to deliberately change direction to get, say the Gm chord.

 

Unless you are going to play exclusively minor tunes, or have another instrument in the standard "Major" tuning, then I would have thought stick with it as it is and learn to play it in minor keys. 

 

All IMHO of course.

 

[Clive Thorne]

5 hours ago, Doug Barr said:

g min is easy in the standard layout! One of my favorite keys.

But D minor, so I've heard, is the saddest of all keys.

[Richard Mellish]

Cathasach asked me to share my layout. Here you go. As I mentioned up thread I'm not entirely sure whether all my choices were the best ones, but at present I have no plan to change anything.

 

One consideration in my choices was that most of the notes that are different from Wheatstone standard are only one semitone different, and the largest difference is (I think, without checking) three semitones. Therefore it will be easy enough for a future owner to re-tune to Wheatstone standard if they so wish.

G-D minor.pdf

[hjcjones]

What minor keys do you want to play in? Obviously this layout  will give you Cmin and Gmin, but how easy will it be to play in other keys? 

 

I have a MIDI melodeon which allows me to create different keyboard layouts, and I have played about with a Dmin/G min layout and found that while it makes playing in those keys very easy it is more limited than the usual layout (the standard D/G melodeon can easily play in Em, Am and Bm as well as the major keys).

 

I think the same will apply to anglo. It appears to me that you may be sacrificing a versatile keyboard capable of playing in several minor keys for one which can play in only two. G min is a fairly common key, but how useful is C min?  (Both are anyway possible on a 30 button C/G).

Any chord shape is "absurd" until you get used to playing it. And even if chords are incomplete, they can still be used effectively.

 

It may be an interesting exercise, and good practice in tuning reeds, but from a playing point of view I think it would benefit you more in the long run to explore the minor keys already available with the standard layout.

 

[Cathasach]

23 hours ago, caj said:

Pardon my ignorance on this matter, but isn't a diatonic layout already a minor key?  

 

I mean, we think of a C/G anglo as being in Cmaj/Gmaj, but it's also in Dmin/Amin (or rather, Ddor/Ador).  Likewise, a D whistle is also an Edor whistle.

 

If someone wanted to play a lot in G minor, could they do so with a standard Anglo in Bb/F?

 

 

I can already play in minor keys, e and a min on my C/G and g and d min on my Bb/F but chords are pretty much impossible, or at least too much for my beginning/intermediate mind to figure out without a lot of extra work and I'd just like to sit down and play sometimes and for jamming with folks I definitely need it easier.