Do I switch systems?

[macnalley]

For starters, my interested genres: I come from a guitar background of bluegrass and jazz, and am increasingly interested in Irish Trad (been tin whistlin'). Sessions in my neck of the woods are mostly bluegrass and Irish, but we have a gypsy jazz group I'd like to play with as well as some contra dancers. In addition, I travel to Italy somewhat regularly, and am really starting to dig the accordion music there. In short, a bit of everything.

 

I came to the concertina while initially looking for a CBA and thinking the concertina would be a cheaper (how naive) and lighter and more portable (I was right there) way to get a beautiful free reed sound.

 

Not knowing much, I got a cheap Anglo since it was the most popular and had the most resources, and while I enjoyed it, I quickly grew frustrated with the limitations. There was the issue of self-accompaniment and limited harmony, but more frustrating was the layout: jazz and bluegrass require lots of improv, and I often felt like I was relearning a new instrument layout with each tune, even when two tunes were in the same key, since the push/pull sometimes required different approaches depending on backing chords and contextual notes.

 

So then I bought an Elise Hayden duet, and I loved it. Within a week or so of purchase, I was at a family Christmas party, holding my own by ear with my piano- and bass-playing uncles as we chugged through Christmas tunes. However, I'm hitting the Hayden growing pains. I need chromaticism and better responsiveness. I need to upgrade, but I can't justify three grand for one. And even if I could, I've come to the sad conclusion that even available expensive upgrade paths won't put enough buttons on the keyboard to bring the Hayden's advantages to EVERY key I want to play in.

 

Curious if anyone has been in my shoes and has any advice.

 

Do I bide my time and hope for more Hayden makers?

 

Do I suck it up and go back to the Anglo, and tough it out? I do still find it's size and lightness appealing.

 

Do I give the English a go? It's chromaticism in a smaller package than a duet, and the logic of the layout seems more easily grasped to me than the Anglo. The only drawback is the lack of second voice dexterity, but I rarely use the duet for more than simple bass lines anyway.

 

Or do I accept that an accordion is really what I wanted all along, and just find the smallest CBA I can get my hands on?

[David Barnert]

2 hours ago, macnalley said:

Do I give the English a go? It's chromaticism in a smaller package than a duet, and the logic of the layout seems more easily grasped to me than the Anglo. The only drawback is the lack of second voice dexterity, but I rarely use the duet for more than simple bass lines anyway.

 

Think of the English concertina as a stand-in for a violin. They have the same range and many similar capabilities. If you think a violin might be able to do much of what you hope to do with the concertina, then the EC might be worth a try. I’m a Hayden player, myself, and have a very nice one, and everything you say about their availability is unfortunately true.

[Tiposx]

I love concertinas, but I think you probably need a small cba.

[David Barnert]

5 hours ago, Tiposx said:

I love concertinas, but I think you probably need a small cba.

 

Yeah, as soon as I hit [Submit Reply] on the above, the same thing occurred to me.

[Johanna]

I don't have any definitive answers, but here are a few things to consider:

 

 - There are duet systems other than Hayden.  Nobody makes them new anymore, but vintage instruments abound, and from the little I've seen, it looks like supply well exceeds demand right now - probably because all the new duet players are flocking toward the Hayden.  

 

 - I think it's selling the English system short to call it a "stand-in for a violin," especially when it comes to chords.  Any combination of notes that exists, you can play on an English, just as long as you have enough fingers and can get them to the right places in time.  It's not that hard to play a melody and simple bass-line accompaniment, and with some manual dexterity you can do things considerably more complicated than that.

 

 - But if weird keys come up a lot for you, one thing to keep in mind is that the English system loses a lot of its intuitiveness in keys with more than three flats or four sharps (so, B, F#, Db, and Ab, and corresponding minors and modes).  Each "white note" has a corresponding accidental right next to it, but it only has one.  So if you need a D#, you'll find it right next to the D, but if you need a Db, you have to remember that you need to play C# instead, which is in a completely different place.  You can still do it, but it's harder.

[Matthew Heumann]

8 hours ago, Johanna said:

I think it's selling the English system short to call it a "stand-in for a violin," especially when it comes to chords.  Any combination of notes that exists, you can play on an English, just as long as you have enough fingers and can get them to the right places in time.  It's not that hard to play a melody and simple bass-line accompaniment, and with some manual dexterity you can do things considerably more complicated than that.

I agree with Johanna, an English is only limited by it's user. I started in 1973 with the usual D-G Irish tunes, moved on to A/Bb/Eb huge-range Scottish tunes & chromatic hornpipes, then to arranging songs and now play a lot of Classical/Jazz/Pop pieces with very elaborate arrangements (I have no musical training either). However the same can be accomplished by some amazing Anglo players as well. Watch some videos from Randy Stein, Michael Pierceall, Vincent Powell or myself on English to see the range of versatility. For Anglo check out Jody Kruskal, Toru Kato, or Jm Besser for virtuosity.

[Ed Nardell]

My two cents - offered also to someone a few days ago who wanted to upgrade from a Stagi 46 duet.  If you want an accordion, great. But if you want a very good concertina, the Concertina Connection Peacock or Custom Peacock is a good choice. Yes, only 42 buttons, but fully chromatic - and available with about a 5 mos wait. The Custom is more expensive, but the standard Peacock may meet your needs. 

[Jim Besser]

Haydens are great but expensive.  English concertinas would give you similar flexibility but with many more instruments available at more reasonable prices.  You should talk to Randy Stein, who plays in a gypsy jazz band but also does a little of everything else, from Irish to Italian and French, all on EC.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

You can play almost anything you want on a concertina ..it's up to you the musician to find the music.

There is tradition if you want, and then less known pieces, which may be intended for other instruments originally..and most will suit Anglo system very nicely.

I have my one and only Anglo 30 key ..and have years of transcriptions from all genres ( renaissance,  classical, and.. have only rarely had to alter or found music awkward to play on it.

It is notes in a musical box, and it's you that can make it sing whatever tune you want.

The problem is I often think that concertina is often taught like it is guitar, or violin, and really it is not these, but just as worthy.

It came about a bit too late to be greatly accepted by standard repetoire composers, and so is unique in that they can hover freely  about all musical genres.

Adapting to suit ( n my case Anglo) is worth doing, as there is a wealth of stuff out there for you to find.

Miss out the chords if you don't need them, and add a few of your own because they are after all supposed to be "Free reeds"..

 

 

[macnalley]

Thank you everyone for such thoughtful responses, especially the suggestions of other players doing the kinds of things I'm interested in doing. Randy Stein, Vincent Powell, and Toru Kato especially were encouraging to see play the kinds of techniques and genres on English and anglos I thought I needed a duet for.

 

Given all this info, I think what I should get is an English; however, it's become clear to me that what I want is possible on an anglo, albeit more difficult. Since I already have an anglo, I'll keep at it a bit longer, and if in a few months I'm still frustrated with the layout and feeling it's hindering me, I'll switch to English. In the meanwhile, I'll be keeping my Elise in the hopes that Haydens become more plentiful in the future.

 

For posterity, in case anyone else has similar questions as I did and comes here for resources, I compiled a list of desired qualities in an instrument, and compared the different systems. The qualities are ordered by importance to me personally:

1. Inexpensive
   • I cannot justify more than $1,500 and do not want to spend more than ~$1,000.
   • This disqualifies a lot beyond mid-level anglos and Englishes and used CBAs.
2. Portable and light
   • This is what really disqualifies CBAs for me. The smallest are ~15-20 lbs., 4-5 times the weight of even a large duet.
3. Fully chromatic A3-C6
   • From a quick look at my real book, Django fake book, bluegrass tunes, fiddle tunes this seems like it should cover the melodies of almost all tunes I'm interested in and would be playing.
   • This only really disqualifies the smallest Hayden duets and anglos < 20 buttons.
4. Comfortably playable in Eb, Bb, F, C, G, D 
   • 90% of Jazz tunes are in Eb, Bb, F, C. ITM is almost exclusively in G, D and their modes. Bluegrass is is usually C, G, D. 
   • This excludes anglos and all but the absolute largest Haydens.
5. Ease of improvisation in above keys
   • This is where the Hayden shines to me. It's stunningly musically intuitive. This is also the big flaw with Anglos to me. The restrictions feel like I can't discover licks on the fly, as almost everything needs to be pre-planned and memorized to work around the restrictions and haphazard layout. Developing an intuitive feel for the board could take a while.
6. Simple self-accompaniment in above keys
   • I'm thinking either the root every bar, or a few notes every bar to imply underlying changes and rhythm.
   • Every concertina seems capable of this. 
7. Full accompaniment
   • I'm thinking piano-like freedom of both hands.
   • Haydens and CBAs, obviously, can do this. I was fascinated to discover the 40-button Anglo is more or less capable of this in all keys, as evidenced by Toru Kato's work, since a large chunk of its range is fully chromatic in the push and pull. However, the mental load required to perform with effectively four functionally random chromatic note layouts that periodically change is staggering to me.
8. Ease in the keys of A, E
   • Relatively unimportant that G# and D# be easily accessible notes so long as chromaticism is there. Rarer keys, in and of themselves, outside of guitar music, but very valuable notes for V chords in A and E minor.
9. Fully chromatic over entire range
   • Relatively unimportant since harmony is easily suggested. 
   • Only Englishes and large Haydens. Larger anglos are more chromatic over their range.

 

It seems my dream instrument is a medium-to-large Hayden that is widely enough produced to not be terribly expensive. Alas, no such unicorn exists.

[Tiposx]

You seem to have completed a circle and ended up where you started! I suspect that many of us have been there, as in wondering which instrument to stick with. The best concertina players that I know have stuck with one system, and made it work.

[Isaiah]

I was in the same place, having started on the English and been debating transitioning to a Duet. In the end I also chose to stick with my instrument, and have just fallen more in love with the English. Hopefully you have a similar experience on the Anglo, and good luck!

[Jim Besser]

Given all this info, I think what I should get is an English; however, it's become clear to me that what I want is possible on an anglo, albeit more difficult. Since I already have an anglo, I'll keep at it a bit longer, and if in a few months I'm still frustrated with the layout and feeling it's hindering me, I'll switch to English. In the meanwhile, I'll be keeping my Elise in the hopes that Haydens become more plentiful in the future.

 

 

Well, I'm a devoted Anglo player who loves the instrument and all its peculiarities.  It's true that you can work around many of its limitations.  But having played with Randy Stein for many years, I've also become more aware that if your interests gravitate towards certain genres, those limitations can be frustrating.

 

Randy and I have played jazz duets, and in many cases I can fake the chords, but there's no way I have the broad palette of chords that Randy can employ.  I get by, and enjoy the process, but if jazz was my primary interest, I'd end up incredibly frustrated.

 

For Irish, Scottish and English dance music, the Anglo has some huge advantages.  But again, there are some limitations. I play in an English ceilidh band with an incredible piano accordionist.  Chord creativity is a big part of our sound, and there are some patterns I can't replicate on a 30 button Anglo, and we do some tunes in awkward keys.

 

I love playing Anglo and I love its distinctive sound, but it's not the ideal instrument for every kind of music, and for some it can be very limiting.

Edited Saturday at 12:29 PM by Jim Besser