It's not me, it's you

[backfortyjordi]

I've tried to search up this question, because I'm sure it's been beat to death, but I'm not as great at searching the forum as I'd hoped to be.

 

The discussion I'm hoping to have, is how does a player know that it's a poorly made concertina holding them back, and not just that they're not very good at playing yet?

 

Side note, I've already personally made up my mind to upgrade. I can financially, I play other instruments and just know it's time. Even if it is me, I'd rather know.

 

Just curious what people's thoughts are on tell-tale signs you've outgrown your box, or that it's teaching you bad habits. Or, inversely (and probably controversially) is there ever a time to sit there and honk away on a cheapo?

[Michael Eskin]

Often, at least on the cheap Chinese concertina-shaped objects, it's when you're fighting the stiff bellows to play at a moderate speed, that's a red flag.
 

On an actual well-built concertina, that is almost never an issue.

[Tiposx]

Find someone with a good concertina who will doubtless be happy to let you play it.

You will know straight away if your playing improves. The amount of effort reduces, your timing and speed improves.

[Jake Middleton-Metcalfe]

I agree with Micheal Eskin about his comment regarding stiff bellows.

 

Basically red flags with concertinas are: your hands, wrists or fingers are aching after only a short time playing. This is generally caused by overly stiff bellows, springs which are giving too much resistance or reeds which need lots of air forced through to make them sound. All things which are common to the very cheapest instruments, or an instrument which is in poor repair. I would not blame yourself if you are experiencing any of this.

 

For good mid range instruments where you will not experience these issues I can recommend the works of A.C Norman and Co, or Marcus music, or Frank Edgley's hybrid concertinas. There are many others in this category, its just these are the ones I have personally played. Morse Concertinas also are good though no longer manufactured. 

 

And there is also the high end which are new instruments made with concertina reeds which you may or may not want to consider.

 

I wish you the best of luck on this musical journey!

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I think most bellows are stiff to begin with until they are used ( and will get more supple).

[David Lay]

If you hope to buy a new non-Chinese instrument, most makers have a waiting time and only a few models with concertina reeds can still be ordered.  Sean Garvey's Irish Concertina Company seems able to keep up with orders better than any others.

[wschruba]

You play to the level of the instrument you are learning on; my partner and myself both teach music (myself, private piano, herself the same/also all band instruments for public education), and a poor instrument can usually be played reasonably well by an already accomplished musician, but can be almost impossible to play [equivalently] for a learner.

 

We have gone through this very conversation with family members at various times, "hey, you're a musician, which of these [insert instrument here] should I buy?" "Don't buy the cheapest, buy something in the mid-range (usually $500-1000USD), because if you stick with it, you will either be fighting your instrument, or outgrow its capability quickly."

 

There's no shame in buying a cheap instrument to see if you'll get along with it, and then buying better later...just don't fall into the trap of, "this one was bad, maybe the next one will be better".

[Matthew Heumann]

Yes, since the 1970's I've been telling (and hearing from others) that most of the "non-traditional/discount" brands of concertinas have such sluggish mechanisms and wonky bellows that most players who want to "pick up the tempo" so to speak, find that their fingers move faster than the instrument can respond. That said, the same can happen with a poor-condition vintage concertina as well. I briefly owned a Bastari back in the 70's and within a year, it couldn't keep up with the speed I was playing. I try to convince people who want to play concertina to borrow, rent, or at least go to a shop that has a vintage instrument and try it on. Deciding whether or not to play based on a "poor" instrument is a handicap to begin with.

 

In the 90s when our son was a new Suzuki flute student, he wanted to know if the flute was for him, so we went to a music shop where he tried, not the cheapest flute, but the most expensive so he could have the optimum experience. He loved it, then of course, we started with the economy model til he was proficient enough to warrant an $$$$$ upgrade. He became an amazing flute player, but might not have taken it up if he first tried a poor instrument.

[Ryan Galamb]

Echoing the others: best way to know for sure is to try out a nicer model, be it borrowing another player's concertina or trying one out at a shop. If you pick it up and quickly start playing better (or more easily) then you're most likely being held back by your current instrument.

In my experience: if you have the means, and have been motivated to practice/play on a cheap instrument, upgrading is a no brainer.

 

Here's my take, having played on the Concertina Connection anglos (prices are approximate; I don't remember the specific prices.)

• ~$500 (e.g. Rochelle) -> ~$1500 (e.g., Minstrel) Do this as soon as you decide that you're gonna keep playing concertina (and have the $$$ available, of course.) The difference is night and day. From the concertinas I've tried, this is where concertinas start consistently feeling "right." I'd happily use a Minstrel (or similar) for a gig if I needed a backup.
• ~$1500 -> ~$2500 (e.g., Clover) An improvement for sure, but if you asked me what's better, it'd be small things that aren't mission critical (to me, at least.) It's a good upgrade, but I wouldn't rush into this tier if you're happy at the ~$1500 tier. If you're expecting the same night/day difference, you'll be disappointed.

Personally, I'm not sure how to know when to stop upgrading other than hitting that first "upgrade" that makes you go, "huh, that didn't have the impact I was hoping for." So if anyone has thoughts on that part of the puzzle, I'd be curious to hear them.

[backfortyjordi]

If only it could be so easy to try a better one! For myself, due to geography, it's essentially impossible to do. 

 

I knew it was time playing with accompaniment, at the speed we play our fiddle tunes. I know I can play the song, I know my finger has hit the right button, I know the bellows are moving, but no note. The action can't keep up with a moderate jig at 120bpm, upgrade time.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

Sometimes a very gifted musician on any instrument will still be able to make a good impression.  Regardless of price range.

 

[Johanna]

3 hours ago, Ryan Galamb said:

Personally, I'm not sure how to know when to stop upgrading other than hitting that first "upgrade" that makes you go, "huh, that didn't have the impact I was hoping for." So if anyone has thoughts on that part of the puzzle, I'd be curious to hear them.

The advice I got when I was shopping for my first "real" concertina was to always get the best instrument you can afford.  Having recently acquired my first "really nice" concertina, I can now endorse that advice wholeheartedly.

 

A lot of people bristle when they see the prices of "good" concertinas.  They think, "Surely there must be bargains to be found." Or "It seems frivolous to spend all that money on such a small thing."  Or "But I'm just a beginner/casual player - surely those expensive instruments are for professionals, not for people like me."

 

To which I say: In my experience (which is admittedly limited - I haven't played them all), you really do get what you pay for; more expensive concertinas, in general, really do make better music and are more fun to play.  And good concertinas tend to hold their value and can be resold for most or all of what you paid - it's not like most things we buy, where once the money is spent, it's basically gone.  And there's no "concertina police" passing judgement on who deserves which instruments - if you have the money for a nice concertina, then there's no reason a nice concertina can't be for you.

[Caroline]

Here’s my experience with a cheap Chinese Concertina:  I got my hands on one about 35 years ago knowing nothing.  I didn’t like the sound, I didn’t like the feel, and never seeing a real concertina or hearing one in person, I threw in the towel almost immediately.  It sits on my bookshelf as room decor.  
 

Met my husband, who had a Stegi for some weird reason,  and I picked it up.  I didn’t like the sound and was further, not interested.  Five years ago, picked it up on a dare of “play the Pirates of the Caribbean Yo Ho song,” and suddenly I thought, hey, I think I can learn to play this thing.  Two months later, bought a Clover…two years later, I bought a Carroll.  I love them both.  Slightly different when playing.  The Clover is the one I take when traveling in the summer.  I feel lucky to have both. Please don’t judge the concertina, or determine whether it’s the instrument for you by cheap models. You may just walk away like I did.
 

 

[Ty Bowen]

9 hours ago, Ryan Galamb said:

Echoing the others: best way to know for sure is to try out a nicer model, be it borrowing another player's concertina or trying one out at a shop. If you pick it up and quickly start playing better (or more easily) then you're most likely being held back by your current instrument.

In my experience: if you have the means, and have been motivated to practice/play on a cheap instrument, upgrading is a no brainer.

 

Here's my take, having played on the Concertina Connection anglos (prices are approximate; I don't remember the specific prices.)

• ~$500 (e.g. Rochelle) -> ~$1500 (e.g., Minstrel) Do this as soon as you decide that you're gonna keep playing concertina (and have the $$$ available, of course.) The difference is night and day. From the concertinas I've tried, this is where concertinas start consistently feeling "right." I'd happily use a Minstrel (or similar) for a gig if I needed a backup.
• ~$1500 -> ~$2500 (e.g., Clover) An improvement for sure, but if you asked me what's better, it'd be small things that aren't mission critical (to me, at least.) It's a good upgrade, but I wouldn't rush into this tier if you're happy at the ~$1500 tier. If you're expecting the same night/day difference, you'll be disappointed.

Personally, I'm not sure how to know when to stop upgrading other than hitting that first "upgrade" that makes you go, "huh, that didn't have the impact I was hoping for." So if anyone has thoughts on that part of the puzzle, I'd be curious to hear them.

I am currently playing a Rochelle 2 and I have a Clover in the works. I'm very excited to finally receive notice that it's done. I really think I've topped out on this thing.

[PaulDa321]

I agree with the earlier poster who emphasized the Minstrel (or equivalent) as the major jump.  It seems like most instruments before that are designed to give you an idea of whether or not you’ll like it. If you’ve stuck with it for awhile, then you’ll want an intermediate model. Sounds like you’re fast enough to outrun your instrument in a session, so it’s at the very least time for an intermediate if you don’t have one already. 
 

What concertina are you currently playing?

[backfortyjordi]

11 minutes ago, PaulDa321 said:

 

What concertina are you currently playing?

Currently I'm honking away on a Trinity College. Some of the reeds had fallen off (?), from the factory to my door, and bouncing around they did some internal damage to the plastic sheets they used instead of felt. I was able to put the reeds back in place, and honestly, looking at the quality, duct taped shut the damaged ones (all accidentals  and they leaked air like crazy). I did what I could with what I had.

 

Where I live (Yukon), there are no other concertinas I know of to try out, but I know for sure it's time to upgrade

[PaulDa321]

Getting it to Canada from places other than the US might not be so bad. I just realized that, as an example, when you order from ICC, they actually take the VAT off and then do the conversion, so it’s less than it appears on the website. Not sure if this applies to Barleycorn in the UK—might just be an EU thing. 

[backfortyjordi]

1 hour ago, PaulDa321 said:

Getting it to Canada from places other than the US might not be so bad. I just realized that, as an example, when you order from ICC, they actually take the VAT off and then do the conversion, so it’s less than it appears on the website. Not sure if this applies to Barleycorn in the UK—might just be an EU thing. 

Oh, I order things from all over, it's no problem to ship, it's just that I won't likely have a chance to try a nice one first