What aspects determine price?

[Isaiah]

As the title says, what aspects of an instrument determine the price? I would assume its a mix of the "feel" meaning how easy it is to make a sound and ensuring the reeds sound at the same amount of pressure etc, and the general build quality. I guess I can understand logically what goes into it but have trouble developing that into an intuitive sense of instrument quality, at least as far as causing an instrument to go from hundreds to thousands of dollars. When I check eBay for instance, there are used English concertinas anywhere from $500 to $2000, and though some of the cheaper ones are for parts it appears many are supposed to be playable.

[AndyNT]

Don't confuse Price and Value!

 

Price is a matter of money negotiation balancing the desire of a buyer and the greed of the seller 😃

 

Value is the intrinsic worth of an instrument (which I think is what you were actually asking about).

 

A lucky person pays a low price for an instrument of higher value, an unlucky person.......

 

Many factors determine value, including

- market demand, e.g. why are anglos more expensive than english concertinas,  even though they have fewer buttons and reeds?

- rarity, is it special, perhaps hand made, antique, etc or produced on a factory production line

- build type and quality

- reed type and quality - concertina reeds vs accordion reeds, handmade vs factory made.

- instrument set up and tuning

- the 'sound' - a Jeffries sounds different to a Wheatstone and both sound different to a high quality accordion reeded instrument.

- etc etc etc

 

And beware eBay, you will regularly see instruments described as playable when they just mean it makes a sound when you press a few buttons. If purchased, they would almost certainly require a lot of money to turn them into a playable device. As you are asking this question, I suggest a better/safer route is to buy an instrument from a reputable dealer or through this forum.

 

The Barleycorn Concertina website is a good starting point to see what are realistic prices for different  concertinas, and their descriptions will give you some insight into how they determine value and price.

[hjcjones]

AndyNT is correct that you should not confuse price and value.  These terms are actually defined by international standards.

 

"Value" is the value of an asset in the open market. Market Value is defined by the International Valuation Standards Committee as "the estimated amount for which an asset should exchange on the valuation date between a willing buyer and a willing seller in an arm's length transaction, after proper marketing and where the parties had each acted knowledgeably, prudently and without compulsion."

 

"Worth" is the value to an individual.  That will depend on their personal preferences and may be more or less than market value.

 

"Price" is the sum an individual asset sold for in an actual transaction.  Again, that may be more or less than market value depending on both the buyer's and seller's opinion of its worth to them.  However the prices achieved from a number of sales may be evidence from which an opinion of market value can be derived.

 

For a deal to be done both the buyer's and seller's views on worth have to converge in order for them to agree on a price which is acceptable to both.

 

Offer prices on places like eBay are fairly useless when it comes to determining value. For a start, they are simply there to attract an offer and the seller probably expects to be beaten down, and if the item sells at all it may be for considerably less (or if the auction attracts a lot of interest it could be more). Secondly, often the seller does not understand what they have or have an informed understanding of its market value.

 

If you are looking at auction sales, remember that both parties will have to pay substantial fees to the auctioneer on top of the hammer price, which may affect how much buyers are willing to bid.

 

To value any asset you need to compare like with like. To start with, the markets for the different types of concertina are very different, so the price of an English will not help you value an Anglo or Duet, even one of similar quality.  A low-end anglo won't help you value a Jeffries or a Dipper.  Once you have narrowed it down to instruments of similar type and quality then individual factors such as condition come into play.  Examples of such factors have already been given.

 

This is where it can get complicated. The sound of the instrument is important, but that can be an individual preference. For example, a player might prefer the sound of a particular maker, and that may affect their view of its worth, but that's purely personal.  It simply affects how much they may be prepared to pay in an individual transaction. However when enough people hold similar views that can affect market sentiment and the market value. For example, the Irish market seems to have a preference for the Jeffries sound which helps to drive up the value of Jeffries instruments. Many people prefer the sound of concertina reeds to accordion reeds, which is why even very good-quality hybrids are usually worth less than a similar one with concertina reeds.

 

I agree the range of figures for concertinas can be bewildering but once you start to narrow it down and compare like with like a pattern will begin to emerge, and will help to identify those factors which influence value.

Edited May 14 by hjcjones
To correct an error

[Matthew Heumann]

I agree with the above comments and would like top add:

I once saw a vendor on ebay who priced EVERTHING at 1 million dollars, hoping some idiot would click bait. I reported him and he was booted out.

 

I always tell people that to me as a player, I don't care about the make, model, year, materials or market value:

"If it doesn't FEEL right, sound the way I prefer, handle well, and hold the amount bellows time I like, then it might as well be a wall hanging: My favorite keepers have ranged from 1896 to 1973 and included Lachenal, Wheatstone, & even a Dipper. But I've also gotten rid of some that others would covet, like a 1940s Wheatstone extended Amboyna Aeola with gold fittings because it grew too harsh for my ears as I aged. To me, it no longer had value, so I traded it in for a mellower & less expensive ebony Edeophone.

 

It's all in the EAR of the beholder.

[Chris Ghent]

Ear and fingers…

 

I often say to would-be buyers; don’t look at a concertina until you have played it.  That lovely wood, those bellows papers, that gold design; it will make its way into your heart and then you will think, I love this, I just need to get used to the bellows/buttons/spring pressure and it will be perfect.  Not. 

[Isaiah]

Thanks everyone for the wonderful advice! I've heard a number of people say that you shouldn't purchase a concertina without playing it first. The distinction between price in value is nice, and I'd heard many cautionary tales about eBay instruments so its nice to have those re-iterated. Unfortunately, there aren't really any vendors near me where I could try out different instruments (I'm in Columbus, OH USA for school/work and don't have a car), so my options on that end are limited. I have a Concertina Connections Jackie right now, and any upgrade to a higher quality instrument in the $1k+ range would have to be my long term instrument just due to my financial situation. I'd planned to just upgrade to a Concertina Connections Rose in a year-ish after I've saved up to comfortabley purchase one, but if anyone has any advice on a more "professional" instrument to move to from my student one I'm all ears!

[Johanna]

What kind of music do you want to play?  Fast tunes like jigs and reels, slow chordal song accompaniment, etc.?  Will you be playing mostly by yourself or with other instruments (and if so, what other instruments)?

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

Materially theres a discussion here on the value of an instrument but maybe there is also more than the financial and material vlaue in an instrument [ to a musician] - especilly if it has special maybe sentimental value to the performer, through connection to [perhaps] someone they knew, or by way of it being their first 'concertina' - cherished and cared for  -  and so on.

In this way however expensive, or of less material value, it may be on 'the market place' in physical money value, it is to that individual priceless.

Edited May 15 by SIMON GABRIELOW
awful bloody keyboard used to type!

[Isaiah]

8 hours ago, Johanna said:

What kind of music do you want to play?  Fast tunes like jigs and reels, slow chordal song accompaniment, etc.?  Will you be playing mostly by yourself or with other instruments (and if so, what other instruments)?

I like playing music generally. I purchased a Concertina primarily to just entertain myself by playing along to music I listen to, which varies widely across genre. This means my focus when purchasing was on getting a chromatic instrument that was primarily focused on melodies, which is why I chose to get an English. I've considered possibly getting a duet since it would make solo performance of a lot of melody and accompaniment easier, but I've come to like the English layout so I'm not planning to change when I get a new instrument.

[Johanna]

The reason I ask is that different concertinas have different qualities (speed/responsiveness, volume, tone quality...) that might make them perfect for one purpose but completely unsuited for another.  So finding the right concertina for you depends a lot on what you want to play.

 

My first "real" concertina was (and still is) a brass-reeded 1880s-ish era Wheatstone.  It's soft and mellow, so it's gorgeous for playing chords, accompanying songs, and blending with small ensembles.  But it can't keep up in an Irish session, and it gets completely drowned out in a sing-along with tons of guitars.  So I have other concertinas for those things now, but the old Wheatstone still gets plenty of squeeze time.

 

I understand the anxiety over buying a one-of-a-kind instrument sight-unseen, and I guess that's why you're leaning toward getting a "standard-issue" modern concertina like a Rose.  But keep in mind that if you buy a vintage instrument and it turns out not to be the right one for you, you can almost certainly sell it to someone else and get back much if not most of what you paid for it.  And if you buy a vintage concertina that turns out to need some work done on it (as vintage concertinas inevitably do), there are people you can send it to who can do that for you.  If you're budgeting for a Rose, you could think about getting a mid-level Wheatstone/Lachenal and still have several hundred dollars left to spend on repairs.  Just something to think about.

Edited May 16 by Johanna

[Isaiah]

2 hours ago, Johanna said:

The reason I ask is that different concertinas have different qualities (speed/responsiveness, volume, tone quality...) that might make them perfect for one purpose but completely unsuited for another.  So finding the right concertina for you depends a lot on what you want to play.

 

My first "real" concertina was (and still is) a brass-reeded 1880s-ish era Wheatstone.  It's soft and mellow, so it's gorgeous for playing chords, accompanying songs, and blending with small ensembles.  But it can't keep up in an Irish session, and it gets completely drowned out in a sing-along with tons of guitars.  So I have other concertinas for those things now, but the old Wheatstone still gets plenty of squeeze time.

 

I understand the anxiety over buying a one-of-a-kind instrument sight-unseen, and I guess that's why you're leaning toward getting a "standard-issue" modern concertina like a Rose.  But keep in mind that if you buy a vintage instrument and it turns out not to be the right one for you, you can almost certainly sell it to someone else and get back much if not most of what you paid for it.  And if you buy a vintage concertina that turns out to need some work done on it (as vintage concertinas inevitably do), there are people you can send it to who can do that for you.  If you're budgeting for a Rose, you could think about getting a mid-level Wheatstone/Lachenal and still have several hundred dollars left to spend on repairs.  Just something to think about.

Thanks so much for the advice! I'll definitely take that into account. My preference would be for something responsive that can perform alongside other instruments like guitars or if I'm lucky enough to meet some other squeezebox players. What would I be keeping an eye out for?

[waster]

Buying a concertina is a bit like buying hay:  If you want good quality hay without thistles, ragwort or mould you should be prepared to pay a reasonable market price....However, if you can make do with hay that has already been through a horse that's another matter!

I'm with the other posters - try it first to test if it feels right and sounds right to you.

 

[Isaiah]

What tends to change between a used instrument and a newer one? Softer bellows I'd imagine and maybe the buttons would be easier to push as well. The main things that I think I want in an instrument are volume control and bellow sensitivity, how does age tend to effect these? Also, bit of a separate question, what are peoples experience with different bellow sizes (6 vs 4 etc)? Thanks again to everyone!

[Jesse Smith]

On 5/16/2025 at 3:24 PM, Isaiah said:

What tends to change between a used instrument and a newer one? Softer bellows I'd imagine and maybe the buttons would be easier to push as well. The main things that I think I want in an instrument are volume control and bellow sensitivity, how does age tend to effect these? Also, bit of a separate question, what are peoples experience with different bellow sizes (6 vs 4 etc)? Thanks again to everyone!

 

Some musicians swear that the reeds improve with play. I'm not clear on the mechanism for this, and I can't help but wonder if it's more about the musician getting better over time at coaxing the best out of an instrument. But who knows? There is much about these instruments that is still mysterious to me.

[Tiposx]

The reeds are the most important part of a concertina. They govern the tone, the responsiveness, the air requirements, well, "everything". Any other part can be fixed or replaced.

 

Regarding bellows, the modern preference (generally) is 6 folds for treble ec, and 7 folds for treble anglo.

However you can do with less folds if you have good reeds, good technique or both. Chords may need more folds.

Some people wish to use the unmolested original box, so they replace worn out bellows with similar (number of folds)

 

Edited May 18 by Tiposx

[d.elliott]

Perhaps a better question is: 

 

what determines the grade of an instrument? and how can the grade be identified. 'Grade' is different to 'Quality'. Grade is about specification Rolls Royce versus say a Nissan. Whilst Quality is about adherence to specification, design life, performance etc..

 

Once an instrument's grade is identified , steel v brass reeds etc. then other factors can be introduced, rarity, condition, ease of play, etc. to separate instruments of similar grade and to establish potential value and price.

[David Lay]

5 hours ago, d.elliott said:

Perhaps a better question is: 

 

what determines the grade of an instrument? and how can the grade be identified. 'Grade' is different to 'Quality'. Grade is about specification Rolls Royce versus say a Nissan. Whilst Quality is about adherence to specification, design life, performance etc..

 

Once an instrument's grade is identified , steel v brass reeds etc. then other factors can be introduced, rarity, condition, ease of play, etc. to separate instruments of similar grade and to establish potential value and price.

"Even though quality cannot be defined, you know what it is."

R. M. Pirsig